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Peter Johnsson
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PostPosted: Fri 23 Sep, 2005 11:26 am    Post subject: Re: *sigh*         Reply with quote

C.L. Miller wrote:
Too good to be true I guess... I suppose I need to work on being a bit less gullible, but it's awfully tough at 4am...
at anyrate, I'll make a point of doing a bit more research in the furture before wasting everyone's time.


http://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index....;topicseen
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s...nextnewest

sorry everyone.

-C.L.Miller


Hey!
I do not think you should apologize. I thought it was interesting to see this. Inspiring actually. I would like to do something like this some day. (But not passing it as an original obviously)
It is also interesting to see these swords that are very realistic could-be´s.
And, after all, with all the reservation: who knows, perhaps it really **is* true...?
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Risto Rautiainen




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PostPosted: Fri 23 Sep, 2005 11:34 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This just great and the reason I love this forum! I saw the post with no responses earlier and almost sent a post asking if this was for real, because something wasn't just right. And look what you did, answered just what I wanted to know! This is just great guys!
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Patrik Erik Lars Lindblom




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PostPosted: Fri 23 Sep, 2005 11:40 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Big Grin I was thinking about something like Nazi-era germanic history fake, when he says it show up 1954 Big Grin Cool

Edit: 1952 to 1954 Cool

Frid o Fröjd!
Patrik


Last edited by Patrik Erik Lars Lindblom on Fri 23 Sep, 2005 3:53 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Russ Ellis
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PostPosted: Fri 23 Sep, 2005 12:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Alex Oster wrote:
I guess, when I see something ~that~ intact, I have to be with everyone her in thinking something is off.


Condition can often be misleading. I've seen bowie knives that were a 100 years old look like they were made that morning and I've seen ones that look like they've seen abused for 100 years that were made yesterday. I don't know that I would necessarily put condition high on my list of ways to determine the age of a piece. Rather I think that the most useful methods have to do with looking for anachronisms (construction techniques that don't fit the purported time frame of the piece or materials not available when the piece was supposedly made for example) and experience with similar pieces from that time period both from everything like the sword being examined to table cutlery of the time period.

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Russ Ellis
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PostPosted: Fri 23 Sep, 2005 12:31 pm    Post subject: Re: *sigh*         Reply with quote

C.L. Miller wrote:
Too good to be true I guess... I suppose I need to work on being a bit less gullible, but it's awfully tough at 4am...
at anyrate, I'll make a point of doing a bit more research in the furture before wasting everyone's time.


http://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index....;topicseen
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s...nextnewest

sorry everyone.

-C.L.Miller


Do NOT apologize! To many of us these sorts of threads are the most fascinating and useful threads posted. I always learn a lot.

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Joe Yurgil





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PostPosted: Fri 23 Sep, 2005 1:28 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

In any case, the engraving does attract the eye (my eye at least). It might even look good on a new blade (or one in better condidtion). Especially if it was inlayed. Clearly this wasn't though since there isn't a scrap of whatever might have been inlayed left. One thing though, it dosen't look too Germanic to me. It looks a little more Halstadt (sp?) the way it flows. I could be wrong though.

Are there any known viking or migration peices from history which have engravings like this, meaning not runes?

Sjá, þar sé ek föður minn.
Sjá, þar sé ek móður mina ok systur mina ok bróður minn.
Sjá, þar sé ek allan minn frændgarð.
Sjá, kalla þeim tíl min.
Biðja mér at taka minn stað hjá þeim í sölum Valhallar, þar drengiligr menn munu lifa allan aldr.
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Joe Maccarrone




Location: Burien, WA USA
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PostPosted: Fri 23 Sep, 2005 1:52 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

At the current bid price, are they making any money, with all the work that went into cooking that thing up?? Confused

I must say, I'm rather taken by the wave design, regardless. It reminds me of........what's that period manuscript with the wavy, flame-like fullers in the swords?
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Patrick Kelly




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PostPosted: Fri 23 Sep, 2005 1:59 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Joe Maccarrone wrote:
At the current bid price, are they making any money, with all the work that went into cooking that thing up?? Confused

I must say, I'm rather taken by the wave design, regardless. It reminds me of........what's that period manuscript with the wavy, flame-like fullers in the swords?


I agree. Genuine or not, I wouldn't mind seeing that done on a modern custom piece.

"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Russ Thomas
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PostPosted: Fri 23 Sep, 2005 2:19 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
Too good to be true I guess... I suppose I need to work on being a bit less gullible, but it's awfully tough at 4am...
at anyrate, I'll make a point of doing a bit more research in the furture before wasting everyone's time.



Absolutely no need to apologise....what for ? What you have done is give us something interesting to talk about Big Grin Thankyou for that, and I was especially interested to read Peters comments regarding this item , as he has considerable experience with handling originals, so his - and everyone elses, comments are very interesting to me .

Thankyou for posting the topic....... if you see any more PLEASE POST THEM TOO Big Grin


Regards as ever,

Russ

Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero !


http://www.living-history.no
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Alexander Ren




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PostPosted: Fri 23 Sep, 2005 3:25 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

J. Padgett wrote:
If this is such an important antique why is the person holding it in the pictures not wearing gloves?


AH HA!!! Excelent point!

Something else that bothered me is that being such a distinct looking blade found in 1954, why isn't there a picture or drawing of it in any of Oakshot's books?

I also am glad you posted about this item. I have learned a great deal in only a few minutes by reading everyone's thoughts on this sword.

Thanks... Alex

"The more you sweat in practice, the less you bleed in battle."
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C.L. Miller




PostPosted: Fri 23 Sep, 2005 4:54 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for the support guys! I was feeling quite embarassed...


In answer to J. Padgett's comment, I don't believe that the sword's appearance on eBay, where a few genuine viking-era swords have been sold over the years (there's another on there now which appears somewhat less questionable), nor the fact that it has never appeared in one of Oakeshott's books should necessarily flag this one as being a fake. There are a great number of undocumented swords in the world, and as those who discover such swords today can make a far greater profit by selling to private collectors, and may risk losing their claim to the artifact by presenting it to a museum or university, it is likely to remain so. I'm certain that there are some simply astounding weapons in private ownership whose existence has never been recorded by any archaeological authority. I've also seen more than a few artifacts improperly handled (ie no gloves) by sellers who should know better, so I don't personally find this damning either ...but I've obviously little expertise in this field.

However, Since the number of unusual features of this particular sword, combined with the seller's reputation, leads one to the conclusion that this is likely a fake, I wonder, are the unique characteristics of this sword the result of ignorance on the part of the forger, or intentionally added in an attempt to raise the value of the sword?
The sword seems "close enough" for me to guess that the engraving was added in full knowledge that such a thing is undocumented in the archaeological record. The somewhat mis-matched upper and lower guard, which Peter called attention to, is quite unusual as well, but not, I think, unprecedented. To be honest, I didn't catch this feature at all on first glance and I'm glad to have it pointed out. But really, aside from those two elements, the sword still appears very convincingly aged to my untrained eye, and I'm glad to hear that at least a few of you agree.
Unfortunately, it seems likely that we'll never really be able to establish the sword's origins one way or the other...
Thanks for all of your comments, I'm glad some good has come of this!

-C.L.Miller
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Anton de Vries





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PostPosted: Sat 24 Sep, 2005 1:33 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

C.L. Miller wrote:
the sword still appears very convincingly aged to my untrained eye

I think so too and I'd like to know how to do this to a modern sword, as I really like the 'excavated' look (but not on my Albions thank you). Would the salt & vinegar treatment for a prolonged period yield a similar result? I welcome ideas and suggestions.
As for the sword itself I must agree (in spite of my almost non-existent expertise) with most other posters that there are too many things wrong with it. Dare I say it? FAKE. There.

Great thread. Thank you Mr. Miller.
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George Hill




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PostPosted: Sat 24 Sep, 2005 2:03 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Viking blades are not a particular bit of study for me, but I was under the impression that they 'always' had deep fullers. This weapon does not have any sort of fuller, unless you count the engraving. I wouldn't myself, it doesn't seem at all deep enough for a sword of this type.

Are there any authenticated Viking blades (of the double edged type) without a deep fuller? The ninth century example pictured here, although also rather rusty, shows the fuller quite clearly.

http://www.myArmoury.com/view.html?features/pic_spotx17.jpg

As does this one, which is also in rather bad shape. Also, note the engraving is in the fuller. If a weapon with a wave engraving existed, I would think it would also have the engraving contained withen the fuller.
http://www.myArmoury.com/view.html?features/pic_spotx16.jpg

It's always possible something unique will turn up.... yet somehow the absence of a fuller makes me espeically suspecious.

To abandon your shield is the basest of crimes. - --Tacitus on Germania
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Steve Grisetti




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PostPosted: Sat 24 Sep, 2005 6:04 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Joe Maccarrone wrote:
At the current bid price, are they making any money, with all the work that went into cooking that thing up?? Confused

I must say, I'm rather taken by the wave design, regardless. It reminds me of........what's that period manuscript with the wavy, flame-like fullers in the swords?

It looks like the seller is trying to "talk" the price up with their statement about an earlier sword auctioned by Hermann Historica, "...it's condition was generally inferior to the present example (with extensive pitting to the proximal third) - It realised €73,000 (US$88,700) when it went under the hammer."
However, even assuming that this piece is a fake, if I had an extra $1775 to cover the current bid price, I would be tempted to buy it. It's a neat piece, and as noted by Joe, Peter, and others, a lot of work would be required to duplicate it.
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Joe Yurgil





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PostPosted: Sat 24 Sep, 2005 11:02 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

George Hill wrote:
Viking blades are not a particular bit of study for me, but I was under the impression that they 'always' had deep fullers. This weapon does not have any sort of fuller, unless you count the engraving. I wouldn't myself, it doesn't seem at all deep enough for a sword of this type.

Are there any authenticated Viking blades (of the double edged type) without a deep fuller? The ninth century example pictured here, although also rather rusty, shows the fuller quite clearly.

http://www.myArmoury.com/view.html?features/pic_spotx17.jpg

As does this one, which is also in rather bad shape. Also, note the engraving is in the fuller. If a weapon with a wave engraving existed, I would think it would also have the engraving contained withen the fuller.
http://www.myArmoury.com/view.html?features/pic_spotx16.jpg

It's always possible something unique will turn up.... yet somehow the absence of a fuller makes me espeically suspecious.


Viking swords generally had wide, shallow fullers. It is kind of hard to tell with this one though. In some pictures it appears to have a slight fuller and in others it looks hexagonal.

So who'll be the first to get their custom wave bladed viking sword? Suddenly 'battle fish' is sounding like a pretty good kenning. Big Grin

Sjá, þar sé ek föður minn.
Sjá, þar sé ek móður mina ok systur mina ok bróður minn.
Sjá, þar sé ek allan minn frændgarð.
Sjá, kalla þeim tíl min.
Biðja mér at taka minn stað hjá þeim í sölum Valhallar, þar drengiligr menn munu lifa allan aldr.
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Alex Oster




Location: Washington and Yokohama
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PostPosted: Sat 24 Sep, 2005 11:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Russ Ellis wrote:
Condition can often be misleading.


True, but I guess what I mean is that it just looks too uniformly done. IMHO. Seems like all the pictures of old blades that bad off, are missing some part, be it a point, chunk of blade, or hilt piece. no worries though... im broke! Big Grin

The pen is mightier than the sword, especially since it can get past security and be stabbed it into a jugular.
This site would be better if everytime I clicked submit... I got to hear a whip crack!
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Russ Ellis
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PostPosted: Sat 24 Sep, 2005 8:38 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Alex Oster wrote:

True, but I guess what I mean is that it just looks too uniformly done. IMHO. Seems like all the pictures of old blades that bad off, are missing some part, be it a point, chunk of blade, or hilt piece. no worries though... im broke! Big Grin


Agreed, I've also noted that excavated viking era swords are often missing the point, one would assume this is because that's where the least amount of metal is and therefore the first to perish.

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C.L. Miller




PostPosted: Sat 24 Sep, 2005 9:53 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here are some swords from the same period demonstrating a good range of decay for purposes of comparison...



This was taken from Jeroen Zuiderwijk's excellent archive, viewable here.
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Russ Ellis
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PostPosted: Sun 25 Sep, 2005 7:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for the picture and more especially the link! I've just added it to my favorites!
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Patrik Erik Lars Lindblom




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PostPosted: Mon 03 Oct, 2005 5:23 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Winning bid: US $11,896.66

Hope's we will hear more about that sword, its really looks nice. Happy

Frid o Fröjd!
Patrik
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