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Malcolm A
Location: Scotland, UK Joined: 22 Mar 2005
Posts: 89
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 Posted: Mon 10 Oct, 2005 2:32 pm Post subject: Care of maille in medieval times |
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Hi sports fans!
I have a question on the care of maille in medieval times.
I read that squires / trainee knights would put the maille hauberks etc into a barrel along with vinegar and sawdust, and then kick the barrel around to get the maille clean.
The book didn't mention anything else after the vinegar and sawdust treatment.
Has anyone heard what was done?
Was oil used as a protective covering?
An aside; in the Kingdom of Heaven film, just prior to the first big fight scene, one of Ballian's father's men appeared to rubbing something onto some maille; it looked like a liquid.
Many thanks
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Don Stanko
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| Posted: Mon 10 Oct, 2005 7:38 pm Post subject: |
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Ffolkes wrote in one of his books that they used to clean the armour by placing it in a barrel full of vinegar. I dont know how accurate that is since Sean has shown us the damaging effects vinegar and salt has on a sword blade. I dont know how much of that corrosion is from the salt and how much is from the vinegar.
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W. R. Reynolds
Location: Ramona, CA Joined: 07 Dec 2004
Posts: 123
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| Posted: Mon 10 Oct, 2005 7:52 pm Post subject: |
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Malcolm,
We meet again.
From personal experience, I have used a cement mixer with wood baffles and sawdust to remove oil from mail, so that works. I would imagine that if you wanted it to be shiny you would have to use some sort of abrasive medium like fine sand. IMHO it would not be out of sorts for our ancestors to have used some type of non acidic oil to help preserve mail, especially in some of the wetter climates.
So to get shiny mail it would probably have been a two step process. Sawdust and squire powered barrel to remove any oils and then the barrel with sand for the shine. Same motive power.
Bill
"No matter who wins the rat race.......they are still a rat."
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Joe Yurgil
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| Posted: Mon 10 Oct, 2005 9:18 pm Post subject: |
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That seems like a lot of trouble to go through. Wouldn't it be better to brown, or blacken it?
Sjá, þar sé ek föður minn.
Sjá, þar sé ek móður mina ok systur mina ok bróður minn.
Sjá, þar sé ek allan minn frændgarð.
Sjá, kalla þeim tíl min.
Biðja mér at taka minn stað hjá þeim í sölum Valhallar, þar drengiligr menn munu lifa allan aldr.
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Mon 10 Oct, 2005 10:43 pm Post subject: |
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Browning or blackening mail wouldn't make it totally impervious to corrosion. It would still need to be maintained.
Over the last year I've had a bit of experience cleaning mail with sand, oil, and vinegar in various mixes. I haven't tried sawdust but I don't see why it wouldn't work as a decent medium. Tumbling the mail in a bucket or bag of sand isn't really that much trouble if done on a relatively frequent basis, as needed.
Modern re-enactors, living historians, martial artists, collectors, etc. seem to have a really hard time grasping the concept of routine maintenance. The only ones who don't make it a major issue seem to be the ones who've worked in a real-life field where the maintaining of equipment is an acknowledged neccessity. Everyone else seems to want some kind of super oil or wonder goo to smear on their gear that will result in a one-time application.
If something like mail armour is routinely tumbled in a bucket of sand it shouldn't take more than 15-20 minutes to take care of it at the most. If you spend the day wearing your mail spend a few minutes at the end giving it a tumble and the effort expended should be minimal. On the other hand, if you let it lay for days or weeks and let it get good and rusty it's going to be a lot harder to get clean. If you spend the day in the saddle do you stable you horse without taking care of it first? Do you shot your blackpowder rifle and put it away without cleaning it? In a modern context: how often do you check you car's oil, or brush your teeth? If any of these things are done on a routine basis the fatigue and wear on the equipment is minimal, as is the effort expended. If the maintenance is neglected the effort and repair needed is magnified ten-fold.
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Johan S. Moen
Location: Kristiansand, Norway Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 259
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| Posted: Tue 11 Oct, 2005 3:04 am Post subject: |
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Good point Patrick, routine maintenance is really the key. I'm an addict when it comes to that; I polish my helmet and weapons after use or about every second/third week if it has not been in use, and always try to oil/grease all my leather items after use, or at least once a month.
For mail, it is probably easier to tumble it in a bucket of sand every once and a while, instead of having to do a major cleanup project once a year.
Johan Schubert Moen
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Malcolm A
Location: Scotland, UK Joined: 22 Mar 2005
Posts: 89
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| Posted: Tue 11 Oct, 2005 4:32 am Post subject: |
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Many thanks to all of you for your inputs; the information given is greatly appreciated.
Small aside #1; I understand that England's BLACK PRINCE was so called as he had his maille treated [or whatever] in such a way that it looked dark / black.
Small aside #2; considering the cost of maille in ye olde dayes, and the lack of "Maille-clean-omatics", I bet our ancestors made sure that they maintained their hauberks etc on a regular basis.
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Johan S. Moen
Location: Kristiansand, Norway Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 259
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| Posted: Tue 11 Oct, 2005 5:05 am Post subject: |
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| Malcolm A wrote: |
Small aside #2; considering the cost of maille in ye olde dayes, and the lack of "Maille-clean-omatics", I bet our ancestors made sure that they maintained their hauberks etc on a regular basis. |
I would think that cost would not be the main reason as to why one took good care of ones mail. The main reason, IMHO, would be that back in the days, you used the stuff for actual combat...it was in your interest to keep it in working order. Lest you die.
Johan Schubert Moen
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Peter Morwood
Location: Co. Wicklow, Ireland Joined: 27 Sep 2004
Posts: 41
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| Posted: Tue 11 Oct, 2005 8:14 am Post subject: |
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| Patrick Kelly wrote: | | If something like mail armour is routinely tumbled in a bucket of sand it shouldn't take more than 15-20 minutes to take care of it at the most. If you spend the day wearing your mail spend a few minutes at the end giving it a tumble and the effort expended should be minimal. |
As W.R. mentions, squires, pages etc. were there to do this sort of scut-work. Made them strong, taught them patience and humility. All that knightly virtue stuff - while the second, polishing stage maybe instructed them in how to identify areas that might need repair: literally, spotting a weak link, which might be concealed by any use of "protective" pigmentation.
That Patrick's description sounds just slightly like throwing one's shirt in the washer also makes me wonder (not quite seriously) if the engraved bronze rings sometimes found all by themselves among mostly iron or steel links might have been not only maker's marks but doubled up as laundry-markers, to identify individual hauberks after three or four of them went into the same barrel of sand...
I'd also suggest, a bit more seriously, that in Northern Europe the commonest rust-preventative grease was probably tallow, lard or some similar animal fat; availability and cost would be factors (whale or olive oil being much more expensive and/or hard to find in the middle of Warwickshire in the winter) and another would be that these hydrogenated fats (the ones solid until heated, and thus bad for you) have the advantage over liquid oil of staying more or less where they're smeared, especially if the mail is being put away for a while. IIRC, aren't modern weapons still packed for storage or transportation in grease rather than oil?
Malcolm - re. the colour-of-armour theory for the "Black" Prince; the armour he'd have worn (see his tomb effigy or the old Airfix model figure based on same) suggests that most of what was visible, except his camail and a few other bits, would have been transitional plate rather than mail, and since a lot of period artwork represents plate as being blue-black, this might not have been unusual enough to give him his nickname. It's been suggested (by Oakeshott? Not at home so can't check) the name actually came from his shield-for-peace (black, with silver/white Prince of Wales feathers rather than the quarterly England/France Ancient with King's Eldest Son label of his war shield) - or indeed from his reputation, which could be rather...rough...except when dealing with his social equals.
"I care little for your Cause; I fight not for your Crown, but for your half-crown, and your handsome women!" - Capt. Carlo Fantom (from Aubrey's "Brief Lives")
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Tue 11 Oct, 2005 8:36 am Post subject: |
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| Peter Morwood wrote: | | Malcolm - re. the colour-of-armour theory for the "Black" Prince; the armour he'd have worn (see his tomb effigy or the old Airfix model figure based on same) suggests that most of what was visible, except his camail and a few other bits, would have been transitional plate rather than mail, and since a lot of period artwork represents plate as being blue-black, this might not have been unusual enough to give him his nickname. It's been suggested (by Oakeshott? Not at home so can't check) the name actually came from his shield-for-peace (black, with silver/white Prince of Wales feathers rather than the quarterly England/France Ancient with King's Eldest Son label of his war shield) - or indeed from his reputation, which could be rather...rough...except when dealing with his social equals. |
Peter,
I've heard three possible sources for his nickname:
-Black (sable) armour given to him by his father prior to the Battle of Crecy in 1346. His father was said to have worn similar armour
-Use of black in heraldic devices, like you described above
-his "foul Angevin temper" 
The first use of the nickname seems to date from around Crecy. As for his effigy, it's obviously what was fashionable at the time of his death in 1376. But since his military career lasted 30 years, he likely would have had more visible mail and less plate early in that career, when the nickname might have arisen. It's hard to know for sure, but is intriguing to think about.
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
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Sean Flynt
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| Posted: Tue 11 Oct, 2005 10:44 am Post subject: |
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The cleaning effect of sawdust and vinegar might depend on some kind of reaction between the vinegar and whatever acids may be present in the sawdust. Oak produces tannic acid, IIRC. You might get different results depending on the wood type. Oak would probably be a good start, though.
By the way, those of you handy in the kitchen as well as the smithy will know that putting baking soda in a stainless-steel sink and then pouring vinegar over the soda is an easy way to clean the steel. I would expect that to work with maille as well. It makes quite an impressive show, by the way. Some of you maille-men should try this and tell us how it works.
-Sean
Author of the Little Hammer novel
https://www.amazon.com/Little-Hammer-Sean-Flynt/dp/B08XN7HZ82/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=little+hammer+book&qid=1627482034&sr=8-1
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Aaron Schnatterly
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| Posted: Tue 11 Oct, 2005 10:54 am Post subject: |
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| Sean Flynt wrote: | | By the way, those of you handy in the kitchen as well as the smithy will know that putting baking soda in a stainless-steel sink and then pouring vinegar over the soda is an easy way to clean the steel. I would expect that to work with maille as well. It makes quite an impressive show, by the way. Some of you maille-men should try this and tell us how it works. |
If nobody has tried this and posted results, and if someone will remind me on or after the 20th, I'll try it on a patch of maille. I can't do it here... but can when I get home.
-Aaron Schnatterly
_______________
Fortior Qui Se Vincit
(He is stronger who conquers himself.)
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Peter Morwood
Location: Co. Wicklow, Ireland Joined: 27 Sep 2004
Posts: 41
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| Posted: Wed 12 Oct, 2005 7:44 am Post subject: |
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Chad -
Finally got a chance to check my source; not Oakeshott but A Dictionary of Chivalry - Grant Uden 1968 (aimed at "younger readers" - which makes it slightly suspect... A useful basis, though, and superb Pauline Bayne "period-style" illoes.) Written 37 years ago, so probably now contradicted by new evidence, this is what I was remembering:
| Quote: | | The other cherished and universally accepted story is that Edward was called the Black Prince from the colour of his armour. But there seems no evidence that he ever, in fact, wore black armour; though there are representations of him in gilt and in silver. He may have worn a black surcoat with the silver feathers; or, as one chronicler suggests, he was "styled black by the terror of his arms." Shakespeare seems to use the term in this way in Henry the fifth, when he makes the French King referred to "that black name, Edward, Black Prince of Wales." |
Regarding your other comment, that the armour represented on his tomb effigy is that of a more modern period than he would have worn in life...
It suggests to me that if the earlier style involved more visible mail, this would still be bright metal and would serve as a background to, and highlight of, any plate armour which was painted or otherwise pigmented black. My reasoning is this: since the thread began as an enquiry about cleaning and maintenance of mail, the methods of cleaning described, and the very nature of this sort of armour, makes me wonder how easy, practical, or even sensible it would have been to try colouring it in any way less permanent than through chemicals or heat. Rings of mail tend to rub against one another even without being rolled about in a barrel; it strikes me that any hauberk or camail which started the day merely painted black wouldn't finish it that way. Hot-salt blueing might be a more robust treatment; certainly it's used on guns and on sword-hilts, but neither of these items are constantly rubbing against others of their kind in the same way as the rings of a mailshirt would do, and such treatment would seem (IMO) likely to conceal any flaws or repair-worthy damage that could be more easily spotted on the unadorned metal.
Does this make for a reasoned argument? And where might I have gone wrong?
"I care little for your Cause; I fight not for your Crown, but for your half-crown, and your handsome women!" - Capt. Carlo Fantom (from Aubrey's "Brief Lives")
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Rod Walker
Location: NSW, Australia. Joined: 05 Feb 2004
Posts: 230
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| Posted: Wed 12 Oct, 2005 8:45 am Post subject: |
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Greetings. I routinely clean my full 13thC mail. This is done by rotating in a steel drum with some old rags thrown in. A bit of shaved candle wax thrown in will put a protective coating on the mail. Makes it smell nice too 
Cheers
Rod
Jouster
www.jousting.com.au
"Come! Let us lay a lance in rest,
And tilt at windmills under a wild sky!
For who would live so petty and unblessed
That dare not tilt at something, ere he die?"
--Errantry, John Galsworthy
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