Finished my rondel dagger -- myArmoury.com

Jean Thibodeau · Posted: Thu 03 Nov, 2005 2:26 pm Post subject:

Risto;

Risto: No criticism intended as to the size of your Rondel by the way.

I think you are right, if you love it you will play with it more. Making it safe to practice with is a different issue !

One thing I might suggest is to put this one aside for the moment and make another one matching it but with the full intent of making it a real weapon. Find the right steel and a place that will heat treat it for you after you have shaped it down to 99% of its final dimensions and then give it a final finish after assembling the handle.

Lots of work but you would have a real one in hand, maybe even better with the experience of making the first, and then you could decide to blunt the first one ?

With daggers anything over 12" is too long for an underhand hold and makes powering the point through hard targets more difficult, longer blades are better when using it more like a short sword. ( Disclaimer time: Opinion not fact that I can support by practical study or specific reference documentation. )

Well, it's a nice knife and it's a nice design and a good interpretation of the design. Maybe you should consider becoming a knifemaker at least as a hobby as you seem to have a talent for it.

Sean Flynt · Posted: Mon 07 Nov, 2005 7:50 am Post subject:

I need everybody's help--

Risto's wonderful work caused me to reconsider my plans for the grip of my own rondel project. I now think I'd like to use a simple, thin leather wrap with cord impressions rather than plain wood. But I have a question: Were wraps of this description ever used on daggers ca. 1500-1550? I see lots of uncovered wood (wrap could be missing, I suppose), wire-wrap and various combinations of carving and ferrules, but nothing like what I'd like to do. Can any of you cite examples of such a wrap? By the way, my weapon has a broad, double-edged blade, thin, matching, undecorated rondels and a conical grip. It would be closest in time/style to 1510/German.

Risto Rautiainen · Posted: Mon 07 Nov, 2005 9:25 am Post subject:

Again, I'd like to thank everyone's feedback on this dagger as it really encourages me to do of this stuff. Last weekend as Mr. Windsor visited us here at Lappeenranta, I suprisingly heard the same comment you all have been repeating: "It would be a shame to cut that dagger down." So I guess it's gonna stay as it is. Off to wood store to buy some oak...

Sean: I hear your problem as I hade the same. I based the idea of using leather over wood on this small tid bit of info I got from Felix Wang who posted it at the Armourarchive:

Sean Flynt · Posted: Mon 07 Nov, 2005 9:43 am Post subject:

That helps! This certainly could have been done, and it seems to make good sense to wrap the grip. I also happen to like the look (maybe only until I see my attempt). I think I'll proceed, but I'd still love to see some examples.
Many thanks!

Sean Flynt · Posted: Mon 07 Nov, 2005 1:55 pm Post subject:

Risto, et al.:

I just found this image at Hermann Historica:

A Landsknecht Dagger

Italian, ca. 1520. Broad blade tapering to a point, the grooved quillons with finials curving towards the blade, the grooved guard plate on the obverse side broken off. Leather grip cover with remnants of a collector's seal. Chiselled pommel. Length 39.5 cm.

This is exactly what I've been looking for, and although the form of this weapon is a bit later than Risto's, it's grip treatment is very similar.

Addison C. de Lisle · Posted: Mon 07 Nov, 2005 6:16 pm Post subject:

Jean Thibodeau · Posted: Mon 07 Nov, 2005 7:18 pm Post subject:

Risto;

HURRA ! The rondel has been saved. Cool

I still think you should try your hand at making one with a heat treated blade. ( And send it to me. Happy

...Just kidding Cool

)

If you still want a practice one just cut the tip in a very blunted circle right at the start or you will have two of these that we won't want you to cut down !

Seriously: Good work there and best wishes.
Jean

Risto Rautiainen · Posted: Tue 08 Nov, 2005 1:08 am Post subject:

Sean, good you spotted that one too. I found it when I was looking for handle pics, but couldn't remember where I saw it. myArmoury's links sure come in handy, when looking for some features in period weapons.

Risto Rautiainen · Posted: Mon 21 Nov, 2005 4:29 am Post subject:

The gods of the bit-realm have been merciful. I found the pic of the blank that I started this project from. Here it is as promised.

Jean Thibodeau · Posted: Mon 21 Nov, 2005 10:43 am Post subject:

Risto;

Went back to read your first post explaining what you had to do to get from this to what we see as the finished product and the amount of work considering the somewhat wavy looking blank is very impressive: Hard enough to get clean and strait lines when your starting point is nice and clean, compensating and correcting initial waviness is a lot harder to do.

Boris Bedrosov · Industry Professional

Hello, Risto!

Very nice "Knife" Laughing Out Loud

, and a lot of hard work, I think. Congratulations!
Why did you decide to make it triangular? Your dagger is very interesting for me. In my books I have some pictures of rondel daggers, but I have never seen triangular one.

Best regards!
Boris

Risto Rautiainen · Posted: Tue 22 Nov, 2005 2:56 am Post subject:

I simply like triangular rondels. They really emphasize what the thing is made for. When you want a stabby stabby thingy, the triangularity of the blade can offer some more rigidity to the blade as opposed to "normal" dagger blades. A hollow ground version would have been ideal, but I really didn't want to try to do that with the limited equipment I had. Here's an excellent triangular blade from myArmoury's Photo Albums.

Boris Bedrosov · Industry Professional

Hello, Risto!

Yes, yes, yes... Laughing Out Loud

Yesterday, when I was looking your pictures, I was thinking about the triangular bayonets, particulary about the Russian ones. Actually, not only the Russians used them widely, you know. I remembered all devastating effects that all triangular blades are able to achieve on human's body and on the armour, also. They might not be very good in cutting, but are excellent for stabbing.

Regards!
Boris

Sean Flynt · Posted: Tue 22 Nov, 2005 7:29 am Post subject:

This is the first thing I thought of when I saw your blank:

http://www.fcsutler.com/fcbayonets.asp

You can get a 17" long (tempered?) replica Enfield/Springfield bayonet with scabbard for $40 USD! You'd have to take about 4" of blade for the tang, but the blade is long, stiff and triangular. And the scabbard would fit with only slight modification of length!
Hmmmmmmm....

Risto Rautiainen · Posted: Tue 22 Nov, 2005 8:59 am Post subject:

I just remembered that my folks have a russian bayonet which is in no condition to be really worth of anything. It was used for earthing their tv antenna for about ten years or so Mad

But now it makes me happy coz' I can make a hollow ground triangular rondel dagger out of it!! Oh, joy! Big Grin

Sean Flynt · Posted: Tue 22 Nov, 2005 9:06 am Post subject:

And of course you will share photos and in-progress shots, yes?

Boris Bedrosov · Industry Professional

Hello, Risto!

I am waiting for the pictures, too.
Interesting how historical weapons can be used in such ways. In the same way as you, ten-eleven years ago I was given a blade from Manlicher M1885's bayonet, which had been used before that for mixing paints Evil

. Can you imagine that? I made from it nice all-purpose knife, but I didn't manage to get rid of the rust in full scale.

Regards!
Boris