Suddenly remembered the company: Armaduras Medievalis. They're semi-famous for making the Agincourt sword. Not Albion's, of course, but a sword that had a wire wrapped grip and brass hilt fittings. As a decoration, it actually was a decent looking and feeling sword, and while the tang was narrow, it was still a full tang sword. At least it was something that a person who wasn't interested in accuracy could hold and think, "Wow, medieval swords really weren't heavy."
| Patrick Kelly wrote: |
| My older ones had "SPAIN" stamped into the base of the blade. |
That would have killed me. At the time (10-15 years ago), these things were the best repros you could find. I wouldn't have had 'em would they have been stamped "Spain". That would annoy me :)
| Nathan Robinson wrote: |
| That would have killed me. At the time (10-15 years ago), these things were the best repros you could find. I wouldn't have had 'em would they have been stamped "Spain". That would annoy me :) |
It was annoying but at least it was rather small and inconspicuos. No big black letters like some companies use.
| Patrick Kelly wrote: | ||
It was annoying but at least it was rather small and inconspicuos. No big black letters like some companies use. |
Heh, well that would be where I got it from. Your Macbeth has done well at show and tells.
As far as the difference I see in this blade, I mention the crossection in my first post and the transition to the bevels from the ricasso. None of the knockoffs show this, I don't see it in the Del Tin or Windlass either. While there are a plethora of brass hilted versions, none of them (that I've seen) look like this blade.
I'd still be interested in Fulvio's inspiration and a source he might have drawn on.
To Bill,
Armaduras Medievalis, I believe, still supplies C.A.S. Iberia with AM as the designating prefix to model numbers.
Edited to add that looking at the C.A.S. Spanish made sword does show this blade geometery and if you take the overlaid W and V marks and turn them upside down, that could very well be A and M. They do sell brass and steel hilts.
Edited again to add a link to David's old article
http://swordforum.com/fall99/braveheart-buyers-guide.html
Cheers
GC
Well Gentlemen, this may be of interest. I have just recieved a reply from the seller, Neil de Croz.
He states the following;
Quote: "Yes the sword was purchased, we had 3 of them, also with 4 original regimental dirks and sgian dubh dirks, you only have to read the last few feed backs of other buyers feelings of their purchases.
"The items are original English Scottish. European armoury coldsteel forged, the maker is Scottish and has been making swords in Sheffield since the 1700's.The crown they put on, is their makers, they have been using since George lll. Blade mark is the oval circle within and oval circle and going from a point to 2 lines being symbolizing the Scottish under English breaking away to 2 separate countries. These swords range in age and everyone has been used against another blade.
Unfortunately you can only claim to be the keeper of it, as in time, it will survive you, as it has its last keeper
I hope this clears it up.
We specialize in the supply of historic swords from original clans and supply them to current related families."
Unquote.
What is your impression members?
He states the following;
Quote: "Yes the sword was purchased, we had 3 of them, also with 4 original regimental dirks and sgian dubh dirks, you only have to read the last few feed backs of other buyers feelings of their purchases.
"The items are original English Scottish. European armoury coldsteel forged, the maker is Scottish and has been making swords in Sheffield since the 1700's.The crown they put on, is their makers, they have been using since George lll. Blade mark is the oval circle within and oval circle and going from a point to 2 lines being symbolizing the Scottish under English breaking away to 2 separate countries. These swords range in age and everyone has been used against another blade.
Unfortunately you can only claim to be the keeper of it, as in time, it will survive you, as it has its last keeper
I hope this clears it up.
We specialize in the supply of historic swords from original clans and supply them to current related families."
Unquote.
What is your impression members?
Kerry,
I believe the saying "Caveat Emptor" (sp?) may apply.
I believe the saying "Caveat Emptor" (sp?) may apply.
| Kerry Wallis wrote: |
| Well Gentlemen, this may be of interest. I have just recieved a reply from the seller, Neil de Croz. |
When you purchased the sword, how was it represented?
My own take? It's absolutely a reproduction. The only question is how old. My guess is less than 30 years old. It's also my opinion that it holds very little value.
He's being honest now, I suppose. Vague, but honest. The fact that he's purchased three of the same item indicates it's not an original, of course. Anyway, the important thing to me is how he represented it prior to the sale.
How much did you pay for it, are you happy with the purchase, and what have you learned from the experience? That's really all that matters.
| Patrick Kelly wrote: |
| How much did you pay for it, are you happy with the purchase, and what have you learned from the experience? That's really all that matters. |
That's a good point. I've said that so many times before I wonder why I didn't say it this time. :)
| Nathan Robinson wrote: | ||
That's a good point. I've said that so many times before I wonder why I didn't say it this time. :) |
Because you knew I would. ;)
My opinion for what it is worth;
1. Still very happy with the sword itself.
2. Not disappointed in relation to the fact that I was confident that it was not from the 16th or 17thC, purely because of what I paid for it. Though it may well have turned out to be a bargain find!
3. Was confident that it was late 18th or early 19thC, so have learnt something there.
4. Still don't know where it came from, or how old it is.
5."Caveat Emptor" Patrick certainly applies, if, you pay too much!
6. It was represented as 'old and battle ready' and that the "Scottish Crown as shown in the leather has not been used for over 85 years" not happy about this description as it has proven to be very mis-leading.
7. Would I buy another one with what I know now? Yes I damned well would!! But probably not from this guy! As I've stated previously it's feel,balance and ease of weild scores very well, and that is also the feeling of a well experienced sword handler.
8. And it is well enough made. Can't complain about the blade especially. Even with a screwed on pommel.
9. How much did I pay? NZ$265.00,US$177.39, UK108.99, Euro159.00. I have since found out the seller got over NZ$400 for the 1st Sword he sold and NZ$375 for the 3rd. He is no doubt quite happy. And he supplied a leather back harness for my one.
Finally, I wish to thank all the Forum members for their excellent input and ideas, and especially to those who no doubt put in a lot of time researching, in particular Glen Clesson and Garrett McCormack thankyou. Some very lively debate was generated and I think we all learnt a little more. I am amazed however that this sword has not appeared anywhere else in mass number. At least at this stage!?!?
And for what it's worth I will continue trying to find where and when it was made. We all haven't gone to this much trouble not to have the final say.......besides,I'm now addicted to the detective work of the sharp and pointy and have found a new and very interesting hobby,and for that I thank you all.
Sincere Regards, Kerry
PS. about the screwed Pommel Patrick, you may want to have a look at this, hope it loads from this Forum, was posted by Glen. Reference To Old Threaded Tangs from SFI "text reference to threads in the 15th century is pertinent"
If it dosn't load have a look under my discussion there on page 2, very informative.Cheers everyone :)
1. Still very happy with the sword itself.
2. Not disappointed in relation to the fact that I was confident that it was not from the 16th or 17thC, purely because of what I paid for it. Though it may well have turned out to be a bargain find!
3. Was confident that it was late 18th or early 19thC, so have learnt something there.
4. Still don't know where it came from, or how old it is.
5."Caveat Emptor" Patrick certainly applies, if, you pay too much!
6. It was represented as 'old and battle ready' and that the "Scottish Crown as shown in the leather has not been used for over 85 years" not happy about this description as it has proven to be very mis-leading.
7. Would I buy another one with what I know now? Yes I damned well would!! But probably not from this guy! As I've stated previously it's feel,balance and ease of weild scores very well, and that is also the feeling of a well experienced sword handler.
8. And it is well enough made. Can't complain about the blade especially. Even with a screwed on pommel.
9. How much did I pay? NZ$265.00,US$177.39, UK108.99, Euro159.00. I have since found out the seller got over NZ$400 for the 1st Sword he sold and NZ$375 for the 3rd. He is no doubt quite happy. And he supplied a leather back harness for my one.
Finally, I wish to thank all the Forum members for their excellent input and ideas, and especially to those who no doubt put in a lot of time researching, in particular Glen Clesson and Garrett McCormack thankyou. Some very lively debate was generated and I think we all learnt a little more. I am amazed however that this sword has not appeared anywhere else in mass number. At least at this stage!?!?
And for what it's worth I will continue trying to find where and when it was made. We all haven't gone to this much trouble not to have the final say.......besides,I'm now addicted to the detective work of the sharp and pointy and have found a new and very interesting hobby,and for that I thank you all.
Sincere Regards, Kerry
PS. about the screwed Pommel Patrick, you may want to have a look at this, hope it loads from this Forum, was posted by Glen. Reference To Old Threaded Tangs from SFI "text reference to threads in the 15th century is pertinent"
If it dosn't load have a look under my discussion there on page 2, very informative.Cheers everyone :)
Kerry,
Is this what you're referring to?
While threaded tangs were used during certain points in history I've never seen an original sword of the size and type of yours that used this system. That's really one of the last things you'd want on a sword of this type because, as Bill said, the pommel may twist loose during use. Also, the threads on your sword's tang look pretty fine, combine this with the softer pommel of some yellow non-ferrous metal of unknown composition and it may cause the pommel threads to strip out under strenuous use. I'd be carefull of that if I were you, it's just something to be aware of. As for a medieval text recommending the disassembly of the sword in order to use part of it as a projectile weapon, well, I've never heard of that either. If true that would be an interesting bit of historical data. I hope Glen can find the source as I'd like to hear more about it.
In spite of the sellers rather dubious motives, considering what you paid for the sword I don't think you got hurt at all. The artificial aging really improved the look of a sword that looks rather cheap when pristine. What you've learned is probably worth the price in itself.
Is this what you're referring to?
| Quote: |
| Now do bear in mind a few factors. Threaded tangs are known back to the days of what this sword emulates, if indeed it is a reproduction. A sword fighting text actully describes unscrewing your pommel to throw at someone. There's a great thread around here I'll link in a bit about the oldest threaded tangs. Could this be an original example and not a Victorian (or later) reproduction? I'd say not out of the realm of possibility.
|
While threaded tangs were used during certain points in history I've never seen an original sword of the size and type of yours that used this system. That's really one of the last things you'd want on a sword of this type because, as Bill said, the pommel may twist loose during use. Also, the threads on your sword's tang look pretty fine, combine this with the softer pommel of some yellow non-ferrous metal of unknown composition and it may cause the pommel threads to strip out under strenuous use. I'd be carefull of that if I were you, it's just something to be aware of. As for a medieval text recommending the disassembly of the sword in order to use part of it as a projectile weapon, well, I've never heard of that either. If true that would be an interesting bit of historical data. I hope Glen can find the source as I'd like to hear more about it.
In spite of the sellers rather dubious motives, considering what you paid for the sword I don't think you got hurt at all. The artificial aging really improved the look of a sword that looks rather cheap when pristine. What you've learned is probably worth the price in itself.
Thanks Patrick, It's 3;30am here and was about to get off to bed when I checked my Email an thought I would post a very quick reply to you.I too genuinely feel I did ok. It's just the dubious manner as you say. I have spent most of tonight very carefully going through all the auctions, questions, answers and feed back on this seller,( yes i know, should have done that in the 1st place, but I love that sword!) and found quite a number of examples, this is a small sample that I included in an Email I sent tonight to the seller:
In this example; The SCOTTISH SGIAN DUBH DRESS DIRK. Auction Number: 39864450 you are asked;
Question. "is this a replica " Answer. no !!!!!!
But earlier,selling another of the exact same Dirk......
The SCOTTISH SGIAN DUBH DRESS DIRK.Auction Number: 21672263
Customer Feedback:"Dirk arrived today well packed and prompt delivery, but could have been described more accurately, as a cheap chinese copy. "
Seller reply:"I never described this as a genuine or even scottish or US made....erroneous was with buyer".
My comment to the seller in my Email to him:
No Neil, the error is not that of the buyer, you give the appearance of the item being either genuine or a reproduction made in Scotland. This is the very same Dirk! You tell one person it is not a replica, yet the same dirk is sold to another member who discovers it is CHINESE! Mate, you need a better memory to lie as badly as you do.And this is a beauty, here again we are led to believe your claims.
And this one is my favorite, in reply to a prospective bidder: Auction Number: 18558852
Seller answer:"What can I say everything I have or will be selling comes for Scotland so it has to be the best."
So I think it quite safe to say it is definately a beaten up repro, but a damned good one. And I'm going to fly in the face of all and possibly decend on the subject sword and say that it is of Asian make eg; Pakistan,India or maybe even Spain(not Asian I know). and go right out there now and guess it's age as no more than 5yrs from what I know of the seller and what I have learnt here. I do now also believe it my indeed just be another 'movie' replica sword.
I will still be hunting to find out where it was made just to satisfy the curiosity of myself and all that have offered their help.
By the way Patrick about the pommel, in my original post I mentioned a 7/16" lock nut under the pommel with a whitworth thread.20tpi I think, though will check this.This sits snugly inside a recess under the threaded pommel. I would say that would make it far less likely to come loose.
Goodnight everyone and thanks again :)
In this example; The SCOTTISH SGIAN DUBH DRESS DIRK. Auction Number: 39864450 you are asked;
Question. "is this a replica " Answer. no !!!!!!
But earlier,selling another of the exact same Dirk......
The SCOTTISH SGIAN DUBH DRESS DIRK.Auction Number: 21672263
Customer Feedback:"Dirk arrived today well packed and prompt delivery, but could have been described more accurately, as a cheap chinese copy. "
Seller reply:"I never described this as a genuine or even scottish or US made....erroneous was with buyer".
My comment to the seller in my Email to him:
No Neil, the error is not that of the buyer, you give the appearance of the item being either genuine or a reproduction made in Scotland. This is the very same Dirk! You tell one person it is not a replica, yet the same dirk is sold to another member who discovers it is CHINESE! Mate, you need a better memory to lie as badly as you do.And this is a beauty, here again we are led to believe your claims.
And this one is my favorite, in reply to a prospective bidder: Auction Number: 18558852
Seller answer:"What can I say everything I have or will be selling comes for Scotland so it has to be the best."
So I think it quite safe to say it is definately a beaten up repro, but a damned good one. And I'm going to fly in the face of all and possibly decend on the subject sword and say that it is of Asian make eg; Pakistan,India or maybe even Spain(not Asian I know). and go right out there now and guess it's age as no more than 5yrs from what I know of the seller and what I have learnt here. I do now also believe it my indeed just be another 'movie' replica sword.
I will still be hunting to find out where it was made just to satisfy the curiosity of myself and all that have offered their help.
By the way Patrick about the pommel, in my original post I mentioned a 7/16" lock nut under the pommel with a whitworth thread.20tpi I think, though will check this.This sits snugly inside a recess under the threaded pommel. I would say that would make it far less likely to come loose.
Goodnight everyone and thanks again :)
I had missed Kerry's reference about a lock nut entirely. Thread machines, taps and dies were certainly later developments but hand cut threads go back a ways.
I had remembered reference to unscrewing a pommel and that old threaded tang thread kind of cleared it up for me. A contested plate in an old codex.
Cheers
GC
I had remembered reference to unscrewing a pommel and that old threaded tang thread kind of cleared it up for me. A contested plate in an old codex.
Cheers
GC
| Glen A Cleeton wrote: |
| I had missed Kerry's reference about a lock nut entirely. Thread machines, taps and dies were certainly later developments but hand cut threads go back a ways.
I had remembered reference to unscrewing a pommel and that old threaded tang thread kind of cleared it up for me. A contested plate in an old codex. Cheers GC |
I missed the lock-nut reference too. That will make it a bit safer and secure.
The seller is now saying that he will only commit to the fact that he bought these swords from the UK, and won't be drawn on the 'origin' he posted earlier concerning the validity of the 'hallmarks'. I have been able to create quite a few problems for him as you will read in his latest mail. Another guy bought the 3rd sword, and had asked similar questions,but Neil won't supply it now. He wishes to get advice from an auctioneer 'Peter Webb'. So that will be interesting.The other buyer is looking for an old broadsword. I have suggested he visits this site and learn a bit more too, as I have. Still don't know who made the sword though,will keep you all posted on that one.
-this is the latest reply:
"You seem to know more about Swords and History than I do,EDIT(thanks must go to you guys here!) and I dont claim to be any expert but Im standing by my claim that these were sent from UK and if it goes to court well I can prove that my payments went to the UK and the items were sent from there and I consider that a fear assumption as to there orgin
I can not stop your form saying what ever you like or sending unlimited suggested questions through
How ever providing prove to you now to have the feedback removed would seem pointless by the looks of all the emails questions you have sent me
I havent been on trademe for the last 2 days it has nothing to do with hiding there other things to do than trademe
But it would now appear you have created some concern with my auctions and some doubt about my UK supplier so Im taking my other sword to Peter Webbs Auctions he is a Antique dealer and I will consider his appraisal as honest and see if he can give idea of where it was most likely made
I will be intouch in due course"
Neil de Croz
-End of Email
So much for where he got his age and ridiculous 'Hallmark" statement from. At least others won't be stung.
The other buyer rang me today. Said that when he saw the sword he was worried it would go to NZ$1000, so he hit the 'buy now', and was going to pay NZ$350. He read my feedback and did some research himself into the past sales on the site and also smelt a rat. Other buyers stopped bidding on his other so called Scottish made Dirks and Basket Hilt swords. Earlier this morning ALL his listings had been removed.
Paul, you were right on the money 1st shot!
Cheers all
-this is the latest reply:
"You seem to know more about Swords and History than I do,EDIT(thanks must go to you guys here!) and I dont claim to be any expert but Im standing by my claim that these were sent from UK and if it goes to court well I can prove that my payments went to the UK and the items were sent from there and I consider that a fear assumption as to there orgin
I can not stop your form saying what ever you like or sending unlimited suggested questions through
How ever providing prove to you now to have the feedback removed would seem pointless by the looks of all the emails questions you have sent me
I havent been on trademe for the last 2 days it has nothing to do with hiding there other things to do than trademe
But it would now appear you have created some concern with my auctions and some doubt about my UK supplier so Im taking my other sword to Peter Webbs Auctions he is a Antique dealer and I will consider his appraisal as honest and see if he can give idea of where it was most likely made
I will be intouch in due course"
Neil de Croz
-End of Email
So much for where he got his age and ridiculous 'Hallmark" statement from. At least others won't be stung.
The other buyer rang me today. Said that when he saw the sword he was worried it would go to NZ$1000, so he hit the 'buy now', and was going to pay NZ$350. He read my feedback and did some research himself into the past sales on the site and also smelt a rat. Other buyers stopped bidding on his other so called Scottish made Dirks and Basket Hilt swords. Earlier this morning ALL his listings had been removed.
Paul, you were right on the money 1st shot!
Cheers all
Kerry, it's not polite to repost email commnication. There's a certain expecation of privacy with email. Please refrain from doing this.
Sorry Nathan and members,was unaware of that. Didn't want to mix his words and put a different slant on the issue and change interpretation.Won't happen again.
Cheers :surprised: :)
Cheers :surprised: :)
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