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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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 Posted: Mon 12 Dec, 2005 10:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Jean Thibodeau wrote: | | ( Edit: Why are the quoted comments not highlighted to make then easy to separate from my comments ??? Am I doing this wrong ? Seemed to work fine the first time I used the quote tool ? ) |
Please don't ask questions and make comments to the moderators/admins in your posts. Send them via email or PM and you'll get an answer. Doing it this way clutters up the topics and assumes we'll read them. I just sent you a PM with the answer to this question but I'll ignore further ones. 
.:. Visit my Collection Gallery :: View my Reading List :: View my Wish List :: See Pages I Like :: Find me on Facebook .:.
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Tue 13 Dec, 2005 6:54 am Post subject: |
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That's the home remedy I referred to above.
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
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Felix Wang
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| Posted: Tue 13 Dec, 2005 10:00 am Post subject: |
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Nick,
My interests have paralleled yours, except that I have a distinct interest is how swords were used historically, and I am mainly drawn to longswords rather than single-handed ones. In part this is because of the longsword literature which has survived, in part because most longswords can be used in one hand reasonably well, whereas the reverse is not true of single-hand swords.
I have owned a couple of Albion blades, and have two Arms and Armour swords as well. Both are very satisfactory, as far as I am concerned it is the individual design that I am considering, and not the maker. If you are looking for a sword from the earlier part of the Middle Ages, Albion dominates the market; but for later types it is purely a matter of taste.
I have no historically fully detailed scabbards. In part, I feel the scabbard is distinctly secondary for my purposes - I am not a re-enactor of any ilk. The wooden and leather scabbards/sheaths I have are primarily to protect the blade and everything near the blade. For this, either type will serve (at least in a Mediterranean type California climate). For purely practical purposes, the A&A leather sheaths seem to be fine. Wooden scabbards are clearly the way to go for historical accuracy, so in some ways a less historical wooden scabbard seems (to me) to be intermediate, more than strictly practical and less than historical.
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Aaron Schnatterly
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| Posted: Tue 13 Dec, 2005 10:42 am Post subject: |
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| Chad wrote: | | Nick wrote: | | I'm afraid that to some extent I'm still in a mindset that equates working leather/wood with being much easier than working steel and hence a scabbard should be much cheaper than a sword. Probably I need to let go of that prejudice ( which is based on nothing more concrete other than steel = physically harder, it's not like I have ever worked with either one ) and embrace the fact that a quality scabbard is going to cost quality dollars. |
Well, there's a lot of hand-work and research that goes into a proper period scabbard. There aren't a ton of people making them well. Those that do are typically very busy because of that. Hence, prices go up. Plus, you're putting a fully custom scabbard with a semi-production sword. |
The one I made for my Ritter (illustrated in the Ritter Scabbard thread) took about 20 hours to complete, not including experimenting with dyes to match, and playing with a couple of other belt configurations. There is no fancy decoration, no engraving, simple metal fittings, it still retains a modified modern buckle instead of a handforged one... Putting the nice touches to one that Kevin Iseli does takes a lot of time and skill, both of which add to the expense. My hat's off to Kevin - he really does do nice work. Haven't seen examples done by other folks first-hand (at least, not from people who produce them separate from their own custom pieces) so I cannot comment with any authority on their work. The two other guys that do come to mind are Russ Ellis and Christian Fletcher, at least here in the US, though I am certain there are others.
One other thing to note... Albion Next Gen Knight - $680, custom historical scabbard by Kevin - $700. Sword of Ibelin from MRL - $150, scabbard of Ibelin from MRL - $150.
| Chad wrote: | | If someone could employ some of the same techniques Albion and A&A use in sword-making to scabbard making, creating semi-custom or off-the-rack scabbards from easily reproduceable components, they'd make a pile of money, IMHO. |
... thus the Campaign Line, or MRL's KoH pieces.
I know you said "if someone could", Chad, so I thought I'd share some of what I've personally encountered along this line, as this was something I considered pretty hard here recently. I can't/won't compete with these two products (and similar) at that price point. There isn't a feasible way to do so without major investment on my part, which I would have to recover. I do these in my spare time, which is both scarce of late and personally valuable, so producing quality in quantity while working part time isn't really an option. If I were to quit my fairly lucritive job to do this full time, I'd have to charge more than anyone would pay. Taking on a project here and there at my pace will allow me to put in the time and effort to make a good piece, but it's priced accordingly, and it's unique, not assembly-line (and my queue is full). The only way I know that I could do anything like this is involves a significant risk on my part - make a handful of cores for a particular sword model, by hand, one at a time, then hope to sell them all. With, say, the Reeve, there are only going to be 100 of them produced, and not everyone will want a scabbard, and not everyone who does would come to me for it - this is a second-order product, meaning someone has to own the first to even consider the second. To make 10 cores by hand for the Reeve now (easier to do multiples of the same at once - more efficient) and expect to sell them all would be "optimistic", and I'd probably wind up maybe breaking even, probably losing on the gig. Making 3 or 4 is probably more reasonable, but there is not much benefit in efficiency to making that few cores to just have them sit as opposed to custom-making one on an order-by-order basis. Expanding the "batch production" method to every piece just one maker produces (take A&A or Albion, for example) would require me to have an example of every piece in production, and then to produce a run of cores for all of them. This is an impossible business model. Partnering with a maker would be the only way to accomplish this, but how's that different than what Kevin's doing? Perhaps someone else will come up with a better business plan/structure/method than I have to do what you suggest...
The only two full-time scabbardmakers that I am aware of are Kevin and Christian. Both work in the full-custom realm.
| Chad wrote: | | Since neither (Albion Campaign scabbard) was made to my exact blades' shapes, it's not surprising that the fit varies. There's a lot of hand-work that goes into each blade and the one they used to make my Baron scabbard may have been worked over less than mine. I would have preferred less looseness in the Baron scabbard, but there are home remedies that could tighten it up a bit if I took the time. |
Even in high end customs, because of the variation in blades, without the specific sword, there won't be an exact fit every time. Even with the sword in hand, getting a snug, perfect fit is quite difficult, and requires a long time to produce. Getting things pretty close, though, is possible given another example of the same sword is available to work from. Mileage will always vary.
| Chad wrote: | | Nick wrote: | | Which brings up an ancillary question - does that mean that the custom scabbards from Albion have an even longer wait period? Or is the wait period precisely because the more expensive and complex custom scabbards have priority and Mr. Iseli is the only one making them? |
Last I heard custom scabbards were on a wait of at least a year and a half. I asked Mike last summer about them, and he said it would be into 2007 before I'd get it. But, that may have changed. If you're curious, I'd ask Mike. They'd know better than me. That's to long a wait in my mind, too, but obviously a year and a half's worth of scabbard customers disagrees. |
Chad's estimate sounds about right, from the conversations I had recently with Albion. The waitlist for custom historical ones is over 100 long.
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Tue 13 Dec, 2005 11:05 am Post subject: |
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Thus far the best scabbard I've seen is the one Peter Johnsson made for my "Big Johnsson". While subdued and a bit austere this scabbard has a simply outstanding level of fine detail and finish. This scabbard is as neat as the sword itself. Having Peter add a scabbard to a custom order will probably add a good $600-$700 to the package and this will only go up depending on how elaborate the work is. Given the level of workmanship I will gladly pay that again, and hopefully will next year if things work out.
I'd say that Kevin Islei at Albion runs a close second behind Peter. Kevin's work is routinely excellent especially in the crafting of the metal scabbard and belt fittings. In this area Kevin's work as a professional jeweler shows itself. While the work is excellent the wait is approaching what I consider to be an unreasonable situation. While I still have two scabbards on order with Kevin I really don't expect to see them, not to mention the fact that I'll probably be selling both swords to fund a couple of upcoming custom projects next year. If you desire a scabbard from Kevin Iseli you'll be thrilled with the craftsmanship when you get it, but when you'll get it is anyone's guess. That shouldn't be seen as a criticism of Albion's business practices as that's their business. However, that is the reality of the situation.
I think Christian Fletcher runs a strong third place in this group. Some of the details of his work fall outside of historical norms, such as many of his belt fittings and the weight of leather he chooses to use. However, on the several that I've seen the craftsmanship is very good and results in a very attractive rig. I had intended to order a scabbard from Christian and had gotten to the point of "When do I send the sword and how much will it cost?". At that point all communication ceased and I heard nothing further. The reasons for this are unknown but that takes CF off my personal list. He does have many satisfied customers though.
Russ Ellis makes attractive scabbards and seems to have a thriving business going. I don't care for the type of leather he uses as much of it seems to be garment weight leather with a similar garment type of finish. However, many people seem to be more than satisfied with his work and it is a matter of personal taste. Russ' work is also getting better all the time.
One name that doesn't get mentioned often or near enough anymore is Art Elwell. I've done business with Art in the past and I've found him to be a true gentleman who delivered a quality product on time. This was several years ago and while Art's work was good then, from what I've seen recently he's gotten even better.
I'm glad to see A&A get back into the custom scabbard business. I haven't seen any of their recent scabbard work first-hand, but if the quality of work is commensurate with their overall quality I'm sure customers will be happy.
One thing for sure: we need more scabbard makers in this business.
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Russ Ellis
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Tue 13 Dec, 2005 12:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Aaron Schnatterly wrote: | | Even in high end customs, because of the variation in blades, without the specific sword, there won't be an exact fit every time. Even with the sword in hand, getting a snug, perfect fit is quite difficult, and requires a long time to produce. Getting things pretty close, though, is possible given another example of the same sword is available to work from. Mileage will always vary. |
Darn it! I'd put together a long thought provoking post to comment upon this and of course it disappeared into the ether. "No post mode specified" indeed!! 
However, in short, I think Chad is right there is a boatload of money to be made, but for scabbards I am not sure how to do it because of the very reason that Aaron has outlined above. There's simply to much variation even between swords that are supposedly the "same." Now it might be easier to do it for sheaths which are a little more forgiving... I've got some ideas along those lines... of course I've got ideas for lots of things... and notice I still haven't quit my day job.
Also theres the question of boredom on the part of the craftsman. I'm not saying scabbard makers are all tempermental artistic types but a little creativity or challenge now and then is very welcome. Turning out 50 gazillion of the same thing would lead to building cabinetry or canoes or something...
TRITONWORKS Custom Scabbards
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Nick K.
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| Posted: Tue 13 Dec, 2005 6:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Chad Arnow wrote: |
Last I heard custom scabbards were on a wait of at least a year and a half. I asked Mike last summer about them, and he said it would be into 2007 before I'd get it. |
Sweet Jesus  ! My inner six-year-old ain't gonna like that.
What about if I threw a tantrum and demanded they place me at the head of the line because I'm so much more deserving than the rest of you? Think that would work  ?
| Quote: | | Perhaps organic is not the right word. What I mean is that they have an overall period-correct look that is different than Albion's. A&A's is ever-so-slightly less perfect, but ever-so-slightly more authentic in my eyes. |
Ah - yes, that makes sense.
| Doug Gardner wrote: |
1. Try to get the opportunity to handle some of these first. The visual impression is clearly important for your purposes, but remember that these are dynamic weapons. How they feel in the hand is going to be important to you. Maybe not immediately, but I bet eventually it will be. Also, if you can handle them first, you will get to see them first-hand. Pictures only tell part of the story! The rest of my post may not be any good, but I'd put money on this point! |
I'm sure that's a good idea, but...I'm not sure where I'd have the opportunity. None of my nearby friends have similar interests and Wisconsin is so very far away . Unless there are on the ground retailers somewhere within 75 miles of SFor a show coming to the area soon?
| Quote: | | 2. I'm somewhat surprised that nobody has mentioned Christian Fletcher's scabbards http://www.christianfletcher.com. You can buy an Albion through him (for the same price Albion will sell it direct, I believe). If you do, you can commission a scabbard from him. I've seen some of his work, and am very impressed. Depending on the time period, they aren't necessarily the most period-correct, but he can generally do what you ask. Check out what he did with the Albion Regent. He has 2 different scabbards for the regent on his website. They are very nice for the price. Turnaround isn't quick, but it is faster than Albion's custom scabbards, by all accounts. |
Hmmm... that does look promising. I notice he doesn't have the Senlac listed on his website, but I do kinda like the look of the Squire with matching scabbard ( I probably wouldn't go green, though ). Thanks for the tip.
| Quote: | | 3. Two Albions that are conspicuously absent from your list, I think, are the Sovereign and the Knight. |
I sorta do like the Sovereign ( though I think I prefer the Squire ), but for some reason the Knight doesn't jump up and beg me to buy it. I can't put my finger on it. But I've read nothing but good things about it.
| Quote: | | Regardless of what you decide to do, if you are only planning to get one, then please take as much time as you need. Lazyness may serve you well, here. Allow inertia to prevent you from taking precipitous action, but allow curiousity to lead you to further investigation, until you are confident in your choice. |
Normally inertia defines my ambitionless life and lazyness greases its skids. But we'll see - the "I want" impulse can also be a harsh mistress.
| Aaron Schnatterly wrote: |
The one I made for my Ritter (illustrated in the Ritter Scabbard thread) took about 20 hours to complete, not including experimenting with dyes to match, and playing with a couple of other belt configurations. |
Hey, nice!
| Quote: | | If I were to quit my fairly lucritive job to do this full time, I'd have to charge more than anyone would pay. |
Nonsense! You'd just have to make a few simple sacrifices. All good artists must suffer for their art. You can switch to a diet of Top Ramen and Spam ( well...generic canned meats, anyway ), work out of a tin-roofed shack and pour 95% of your meager income into materials. Then, after you die of a combination of scurvy ( no fresh vegetables or fruit - silly luxuries ) and rickets ( the working artist doesn't have time for sunshine ) and they lever your goiter-covered corpse into a pauper's grave ( iodized salt? you can't waste your money on frivolities ), your work will be discovered. Soon your scabbards will be going for $35,000 at fancy New York art galleries.
And that will make it all worthwhile  .
| Quote: | | (and my queue is full). |
Well, darn.
| Patrick Kelly wrote: |
I think Christian Fletcher runs a strong third place in this group...I had intended to order a scabbard from Christian and had gotten to the point of "When do I send the sword and how much will it cost?". At that point all communication ceased and I heard nothing further. The reasons for this are unknown but that takes CF off my personal list. He does have many satisfied customers though. |
His work definitely looks interesting. Hopefully the customer service issue was just one of those odd misunderstandings that occasionally crop up.
| Quote: | Russ Ellis makes attractive scabbards and seems to have a thriving business going.
One name that doesn't get mentioned often or near enough anymore is Art Elwell. |
I'll definitely give them a gander. Thanks for the honest appraisals .
| Quote: | | I'm glad to see A&A get back into the custom scabbard business. I haven't seen any of their recent scabbard work first-hand, but if the quality of work is commensurate with their overall quality I'm sure customers will be happy. |
Yes, I'm curious about these as well. Anyone have testimonials or an idea of their turnaround on custom work?
| Russ Ellis wrote: |
Turning out 50 gazillion of the same thing would lead to building cabinetry or canoes or something... |
God forbid .
By the way another thing I like about this website is the participation of manufacturers/craftsman despite what seems to be a distinct lack of pandering. Very heartening.
- Nick
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