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W. Schütz
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Location: Sweden
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PostPosted: Tue 20 Dec, 2005 4:48 am    Post subject: Can someone date this warhammer for me?         Reply with quote

Hello. Willhelm writing, my first post here. Was wondering if someone could help me out with what part of what century this weapon is from:


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Wolfgang Armbruster





Joined: 03 Apr 2005

Posts: 322

PostPosted: Tue 20 Dec, 2005 5:07 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hmmmm, first of all that thing is probably of middle-eastern or Indian origin. It's really hard to determine the age of such things since the designs there hardly changed over time compared to the huge differences in the West.

Do you have more info on this piece? Where did you get it from? I'm no expert on oriental arms but that thing looks a bit like a fake. However, I could be wrong Happy
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Chuck Russell




Location: WV
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PostPosted: Tue 20 Dec, 2005 5:27 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

is it wood or is the steel that color? looks liek an old tableleg Wink hehehe pretty neat anyways. i know late 15thc they had some hammers that looked something like that in europe but that is an extreme version i have never seen.
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Allan Senefelder
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Location: Upstate NY
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PostPosted: Tue 20 Dec, 2005 5:33 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I would tend to agree with Wolfgang. If its legit it has an Indo-Persian feel to it which makes it some what hard to date as they were using this sort of thing up to the close of the 19th century. There was however a tradition for hammers of this sort (very long head overall although usually with a flat hammer head and a very long back spike and mostly set on a wooden haft even into the 17th century) in Poland/Lithuania. While i'm not sure about the head I think the haft is a replacement. So if it on the up and up 1) Indo-Perdian date ? 2) European maybe eastern 16th-17th century?. Maybe some one else can shead more light on it but any history you might have would help.
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Greyson Brown




Location: Windsor, Colorado
Joined: 22 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: Tue 20 Dec, 2005 8:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

W. Stilleborn wrote:
Can someone date this warhammer for me?


Sure, Willhelm, I would be glad to take her to a movie and then dinner. I can do that "long walks on the beach" thing too, but you'll have to provide the beach. Or maybe I could just take her for drinks. Razz Sorry, just couldn't stop myself.

I haven't seen any European warhammers that looked quite like that before, but they might exist. I too am inclined to agree with the likelihood of an Indo-Persian origin. Where did you find this piece? Do you have any other info on it? It certainly is an interesting specimen.

-Grey

"So long as I can keep the path of honor I am well content."
-Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, The White Company
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Russ Ellis
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PostPosted: Tue 20 Dec, 2005 8:50 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm not completely sure it is relevant but I have two turkish axes that exhibit the same sort of octagonal "eye" for the haft to go through and the same sort of haft as well. Their date: late 20th century.
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Alexander Hinman




Location: washington, dc
Joined: 08 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: Tue 20 Dec, 2005 9:29 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

There appears to be a weld in the top-right picture that seems highly suspect to me, where the hammer head connects with the socket... Of course, I'm no expert at welding (barely an amateur), so my claim can probably be shot down by someone more experienced.

I'd agree with the other statements about the Indo-Persian origin, but as for century I'm tempted to say 20th.
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Russ Ellis
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PostPosted: Tue 20 Dec, 2005 10:57 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

If I might ask where did you get this thing from?
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Joachim Nilsson





Joined: 29 Sep 2003

Posts: 510

PostPosted: Tue 20 Dec, 2005 12:38 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Russ Ellis wrote:
If I might ask where did you get this thing from?


It's currently up for sale at a Swedish online-auction site. I know 'cause I just got outbid on it...
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Russ Ellis
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PostPosted: Tue 20 Dec, 2005 1:22 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Drat so much for being able to get a read from the provenance...
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Joachim Nilsson





Joined: 29 Sep 2003

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PostPosted: Tue 20 Dec, 2005 1:33 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Russ Ellis wrote:
Drat so much for being able to get a read from the provenance...


I'll translate the auction description for you. It reads as follows:

"I am not entirely sure what this is, possibly a replica of a war/horseman's hammer.
Massive iron with wooden haft.
Length 72cms. Length of metal part approx. 30cms. Weight 584g.
Not newly made, seems to have a couple of years to it's name. Though not medieval. =)
For some reason the metal part can be twisted around the wooden haft, which makes it quite ineffective as a weapon. Maybe you are not supposed to kill anyone with it?
Very good condition."

So, no: No provenance there. Happy
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Ruel A. Macaraeg





Joined: 25 Aug 2003

Posts: 306

PostPosted: Tue 20 Dec, 2005 1:53 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
Hmmmm, first of all that thing is probably of middle-eastern or Indian origin. It's really hard to determine the age of such things since the designs there hardly changed over time compared to the huge differences in the West.


This is something often repeated and widely believed about non-European arms and armor, but which isn't actually true. In "Indo-Persia" particularly, very dramatic changes occurred which are well attested in the historical record.

I spoke on this very idea -- dynamic West vs. stagnant East in arms & armor evolution -- in a lecture I gave at the University of Houston just this past October.
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Russ Ellis
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PostPosted: Tue 20 Dec, 2005 1:56 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That's interesting Ruel, would you say that the same factors that precipitated the change in Western Arms (i.e. increasing complexity of defenses) also caused change in Eastern Arms?
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Wolfgang Armbruster





Joined: 03 Apr 2005

Posts: 322

PostPosted: Tue 20 Dec, 2005 1:58 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ruel A. Macaraeg wrote:
Quote:
Hmmmm, first of all that thing is probably of middle-eastern or Indian origin. It's really hard to determine the age of such things since the designs there hardly changed over time compared to the huge differences in the West.


This is something often repeated and widely believed about non-European arms and armor, but which isn't actually true. In "Indo-Persia" particularly, very dramatic changes occurred which are well attested in the historical record.

I spoke on this very idea -- dynamic West vs. stagnant East in arms & armor evolution -- in a lecture I gave at the University of Houston just this past October.


Maybe you want to start a new thread on this topic?! I really would like to hear more! Always eager to learn Happy
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W. Schütz
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Location: Sweden
Joined: 19 Dec 2005

Posts: 369

PostPosted: Tue 20 Dec, 2005 2:25 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yes. It is from a swedish auction-site as said above, and i was curious of its origins because it looked quite unusual.

J.N -
Världen är tydligen liten för oss internetbaserade, vapenintresserade..
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Joachim Nilsson





Joined: 29 Sep 2003

Posts: 510

PostPosted: Wed 21 Dec, 2005 2:07 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

W. Stilleborn wrote:
Yes. It is from a swedish auction-site as said above, and i was curious of its origins because it looked quite unusual.

J.N -
Världen är tydligen liten för oss internetbaserade, vapenintresserade..


Yes, I found it quite unusual too.

Jepp, väldigt liten märker jag. Det råkar inte vara du som bjöd över mig? Happy
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Ruel A. Macaraeg





Joined: 25 Aug 2003

Posts: 306

PostPosted: Wed 21 Dec, 2005 7:42 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
Russ
That's interesting Ruel, would you say that the same factors that precipitated the change in Western Arms (i.e. increasing complexity of defenses) also caused change in Eastern Arms?

Quote:
Wolfgang
Maybe you want to start a new thread on this topic?! I


Friends,
There are probably several worthwhile discussions we could spin off from here:

* Is there such a thing as an East/West divide in arms and armor? (I really don't believe so)
* Is there even such a thing as an "East" in terms of arms and armor? (Again, I think not)
* Have European weapons really been more dynamic and innovative throughout history in comparison to other traditions? (I don't believe this either, though one gets this impression from the way material in our "reference" books is organized)

Which direction should we take? Any of them would probably make a lively critical thinking exercise. Cool
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W. Schütz
Industry Professional



Location: Sweden
Joined: 19 Dec 2005

Posts: 369

PostPosted: Wed 21 Dec, 2005 10:10 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Joachim Nilsson wrote:
Jepp, väldigt liten märker jag. Det råkar inte vara du som bjöd över mig? Happy



Nej då. Den hade lite för "intressant" utseende för min smak..
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