How was mail affixed to the leather/cloth strip that laced to a bascinet? Was it tied with laces at certain points or stitched all around or were the individual rings run through holes in the strip and riveted closed? Thanks!
Last edited by Chad Arnow on Tue 03 Jan, 2006 10:17 am; edited 1 time in total
depends. time/place etc
i have seen teh mail sewn to the leather, i have seen the leather have lil holes inwhich each ring was attached thru etc.
then teh leather was usually attched to the helm using verellies(sp?)
i have seen teh mail sewn to the leather, i have seen the leather have lil holes inwhich each ring was attached thru etc.
then teh leather was usually attched to the helm using verellies(sp?)
| Chad Arnow wrote: |
| How was mail affixed to the leather/cloth strip that laced to a bascinet? Was it tied with laces at certain points or stitched all around or were the individual rings run through holes in the strip and riveted closed? Thanks! |
I realize your question is related to historical methods, and I want to say "Choice B", but don't have clear evidence to back it up. I'll do some looking, and hopefully others will have good input.
In the mean time, I have seen recreations done using all three, with the following thoughts:
A) tied with laces: Pointing it was a waste of time. It drooped, shifted, and was an outright obnoxious pain in the ass. I doubt this was done.
B) stitched into a leather band: I've seen this being a single ply or sandwich method. The sandwich worked fairly well, but was the hardest of all techniques to manage, because of trying to keep all the maille in line, along with two layers of leather. The leather was thinner, but provided a solid, almost spongelike attachment to the verveles, so the leather sprung back against the cord or wire woven through the holes in the verveles to hold it in place. Using a thicker single piece of leather also worked very well, and was probably a lot easier.
C) Piercing the leather, and linking through it: This sets the rings cock-eyed along the maille/leather juncture, and gives a poor appearance and poor fit along the helm. Unless the rings are actually bent to make them lay flat, this causes interference with visors and such.
It's my feeling from these experiences that choice B is the best method of these... easy enough to have tried all of them, so I'm sure they did, too.
| Chuck Russell wrote: |
| depends. time/place etc
i have seen teh mail sewn to the leather, i have seen the leather have lil holes inwhich each ring was attached thru etc. then teh leather was usually attched to the helm using verellies(sp?) |
Chuck,
Well, since we're talking bascinets, that limits it by time a little bit. Maybe I can be more specific: I'm most interested in the latter half of the 14th century, kind of the heyday of the typical bascinet.
Vervelles were used to attach the strip to the bascinet. A lace went through the vervelles and was knotted at either end. In some periods, it was fashionable to cover the vervelles with a fancy cloth strip.
Was it more common to sew the mail to the strip (does the strip have a name?) or did the rings more often pass through the strip?
I've renamed this thread since I intend to ask more aventail-related questions. :)
I've seen pictorial evidence of and have heard about aventails being lined with quilted material. How common was this in the late 14th century?
Also, there is evidence and speculation that says that gorgets were worn under aventails. Was this common? If so, how can we tell since the aventail covers it? Also was the gorget worn in place of, or in addition to, any padded/quilted liner?
I've seen pictorial evidence of and have heard about aventails being lined with quilted material. How common was this in the late 14th century?
Also, there is evidence and speculation that says that gorgets were worn under aventails. Was this common? If so, how can we tell since the aventail covers it? Also was the gorget worn in place of, or in addition to, any padded/quilted liner?
when i get home i'll look up some pics for you. as to the gorget question its hard to say. you cant see it, but i dont know of any that were found in digs.
reason i asked on the time/place is cause fashion is a key ;) things change so much in th "14th c" its sometimes hard to see the subtle differences unless you look for it
reason i asked on the time/place is cause fashion is a key ;) things change so much in th "14th c" its sometimes hard to see the subtle differences unless you look for it
Hey Chad,
You have Arms and Armour of the Medieval Knight, right? On page 70 there is a nice large image of a bascinet with an aventail which appears to use Aaron's "method b", with the mail sandwhiched and sewn between two leather bands, and the leather has holes for the vervailles to pass through. A string is laced through the vervailles to keep the leather from coming off. According to the same book, the aventail was originally rivetted directly to the helmet, but this method was later adopted so that the aventail could be removed for cleaning.
You have Arms and Armour of the Medieval Knight, right? On page 70 there is a nice large image of a bascinet with an aventail which appears to use Aaron's "method b", with the mail sandwhiched and sewn between two leather bands, and the leather has holes for the vervailles to pass through. A string is laced through the vervailles to keep the leather from coming off. According to the same book, the aventail was originally rivetted directly to the helmet, but this method was later adopted so that the aventail could be removed for cleaning.
i dunno about directly rivetting to the helmet. a lot of early sources said this before research showed what they thought was rivet/mail holes was accually holes for a liner.
AAOMK is a great book to look at for this subject. page 76 has a quilted aventail. it also shows a good many effigys and such on them as well.
i'd say arron has it down good in his opinion for recreation in #2
AAOMK is a great book to look at for this subject. page 76 has a quilted aventail. it also shows a good many effigys and such on them as well.
i'd say arron has it down good in his opinion for recreation in #2
| Bill Grandy wrote: |
| Hey Chad,
You have Arms and Armour of the Medieval Knight, right? On page 70 there is a nice large image of a bascinet with an aventail which appears to use Aaron's "method b", with the mail sandwhiched and sewn between two leather bands, and the leather has holes for the vervailles to pass through. A string is laced through the vervailles to keep the leather from coming off. According to the same book, the aventail was originally rivetted directly to the helmet, but this method was later adopted so that the aventail could be removed for cleaning. |
I do indeed (see my reading list :) ). The only issue with the Wallace Collection bascinet (shown on page 70) is that the aventail isn't original. The one currently on display may have been made by Erik Schmid (that's what I believe I heard); it's modern I believe. The one in the book is said to be "associated," though I don't know if that means it is antique but not originally from that bascinet or Victorian, etc.
Chuck,
Thanks for pointing that one out. The aventail certainly looks quilted, and it looks like mail is peeking out from it, though it's hard to tell if it's truly a mail aventail or just a bishop's mantle kind of thing.
| Chuck Russell wrote: |
| modern replicas:
quilted: http://clang.adkinssoftware.com/hist%20helm/klap%2001.html |
Chuck,
I've seen those. That's part of what has me so intrigued. :)
hehehe that helm belongs to my buddy paul. its sweet.
as to the original aventail, eric does the best job in the world. so knowing him and his research, its prob as close to perfect as your going to see. there is so much in museums on armour that people take for originals when say only 2 pieces of the entire suit are period the rest are reproductions.
lets see what else i have...
stephen bulls: historical guide to arms and armor pages:66 shows mail thru the leather.
ug have to look for more later, sorry but my 18 month old calls.
as to the original aventail, eric does the best job in the world. so knowing him and his research, its prob as close to perfect as your going to see. there is so much in museums on armour that people take for originals when say only 2 pieces of the entire suit are period the rest are reproductions.
lets see what else i have...
stephen bulls: historical guide to arms and armor pages:66 shows mail thru the leather.
ug have to look for more later, sorry but my 18 month old calls.
Chuck,
Thanks for the info. Most effigies I've seen don't give a clear enough picture of how the aventail is attached. Also, a lot of aventails in museums are "associated" and/or modern. Aaron's idea makes the most sense and would make it easiest to replace/repair the aventail.
If anyone has any more evidence one way or another, I'd love to hear it.
Thanks for the info. Most effigies I've seen don't give a clear enough picture of how the aventail is attached. Also, a lot of aventails in museums are "associated" and/or modern. Aaron's idea makes the most sense and would make it easiest to replace/repair the aventail.
If anyone has any more evidence one way or another, I'd love to hear it.
I like that linen aventail even more than the mail ones! Makes me want to go out and prove their existance, so that I can justify putting one on my bascinet. Of course, I would need a bascinet first... :lol:
-Grey
-Grey
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