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Max Chouinard




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Location: Quebec, Qc
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PostPosted: Wed 24 Feb, 2010 9:00 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
Some admixture of later armour styles and brigantines and I assume some more " Anglicized " or rich Irish Knights might have owned armour closer to European Continental armour.


Hi Jean. Well what is even more surprising is that the Butler family was an Anglo-Norman family and among the richest in Ireland. They were the official wine purveyor of the king (their name means wine steward), and so you could imagine how that affected their finances. That said they were also named as being leaders of the Royalist forces of Ireland, opposing the Cromwell invasion. It seemed that from the Elizabethan invasion up to the Penal laws, they felt more Irish than English. The reason for their armor might be :

1) Reactionnary conservatism. Clinging to old ways seemed to have been a way to rebel against english influence. The English were often those who introduced new ways of doing things in Ireland, and so rejecting them was also a claim to independance. They did the same with the bagpipe (actually Italian, maybe Roman, in origin) probably the shillelagh too (in its use), and were known to ridiculise people who adopted the "slender english rapier".

2) Practical reasons. Ireland was for a long time very different from the rest of Europe, because it still conserved most of its forests. Battle was then made through guerilla, raids, ambush. Richard II suffered greatly because of these tactics during his failed invasion in 1399, and it seems that the english actually reverted to maille when invading again in the 1580's :http://www.lib.ed.ac.uk/about/bgallery/Gallery/researchcoll/pages/bg0061_jpg.htm Notice how both armies have armors which are not so dissimilar (compared to other images where the English are shown in plate armor).

3) Difficult access. As was the case in Scotland, people didn't had much access to the big armoring centers. Foreign plate armor was then probably even more expensive than anywhere else.

Anyhow, it seems that even if we produce strict typologies and chronologies for armor, many people back then wouldn't have cared for them.

Maxime Chouinard

Antrim Bata

Quebec City Kenjutsu

I don't do longsword
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Thom R.




PostPosted: Wed 24 Feb, 2010 9:40 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

There are effigies of the same period in Ireland that show full plate. There are also effigies that show only mail and textile arming coats (cotuns). There is even some splinted armour. There is a fair amount of variety. The armour worn by Butler however is very typical of the armours shown in the late 15th c / early 16th c Anglo-Irish knightly effigies. There is full plate on the limbs, but the core of the body has mail and brigandine (or coat of plates) supplemented with shoulder cops and a mail pisane or mail standard collar. I wouldn't underestimate the effectiveness of this armour, Dan Howard keeps reminding us not to underestimate the effectiveness of properly constructed mail and I tend to agree with him - mail and brigandine might actually be in some ways more flexible and effective (albeit heavier) than breastplate, faulds and tassets, pauldrons and gorget, at least with respect to arrows. Also the style of fighting, the fact that it is a colder climate much of the year, and as Max stated - easier to fit and maintain. Ireland is not the only place where you still see mail and brigandine in the early 16thc, Scotland, Northern Europe, and Russia too. tr
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Ben Mudd




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PostPosted: Wed 24 Feb, 2010 4:35 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thom R. wrote:
The Journal of the Historical and Archaeological Association of Ireland originally founded as The Kilkenny Archaeological Society, University Press, Dublin, 1873. The confusion I think lies with the fact that several of the Historical and Archaeological Association of Ireland Journals were re-printed by the RSAI and University Press a few years after their rather limited first printing. So several of the Historical and Archaeological Association of Ireland Journals were re-printed all at the same time in 1873 if I recall correctly. You should be able to find it on Google books. The reason why I posted the Victorian period sketch of the tomb surround was that - as you stated - it shows details that are not obvious today. That was why I thought it was worth sharing. Whether that is because it was in a better state of preservation 150 years ago or whether it was artistic license - I don't know. tr


Thanks! There doesn't seem to be a copy of this particular journal available on Google Books, or if there is, I haven't been able to find it. Do you have the full bibliographical information of the article that the pictures accompanied? I have friends at NUIG who could probably copy it for me if I knew exactly where to tell them to find it.
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Jean Thibodeau




PostPosted: Wed 24 Feb, 2010 6:17 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thom R. wrote:
I wouldn't underestimate the effectiveness of this armour, Dan Howard keeps reminding us not to underestimate the effectiveness of properly constructed mail and I tend to agree with him - mail and brigandine might actually be in some ways more flexi



I think we tend to think of armour changes as progressive changes from less effective to more effective but underestimate the influence of fashion and style.

Some advantages of the later plate compared to 14th century transitional armour would be less weight but the transitional armour might be more flexible in both sense of the word: A) Less rigid/better range of motion. B) One can wear it all in layers or choose to wear only the mail with or without extra plate defences.

As Max said we tend to make typologies and expect actual history to be neat and chronologically consistent ! I think that although we may be correct in general we might be wrong if we think in absolutes.

Max Chouinard. wrote:
Anyhow, it seems that even if we produce strict typologies and chronologies for armor, many people back then wouldn't have cared for them.


Oh, and form follows function and if 14th century styled armour was better adapted to geography, fighting style, cost, reactionary conservatism it sort of explains why the later armour might not be popular in certain regions.

In any case, this geographic variety of styles/periods of armour co-existing in the same time period is sort of interesting.
Wink

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Thom R.




PostPosted: Mon 01 Mar, 2010 10:19 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ben, try this link for google books. page 252

http://tinyurl.com/yfgnf8v

tr


Last edited by Thom R. on Mon 01 Mar, 2010 12:57 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Nathan F




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Location: ireland
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PostPosted: Mon 01 Mar, 2010 11:34 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

ah i am liking this thread aint got to read it much but will i see max got in ahead of me on this topic well done wherever irish arms and combat are us folk who love shillelagh bata are on hand to make our presence know i like it.
also when i get around to it im an irish reenactor as well as bata practioner one of very few in ireland. and i specialise in hiberno norse ireland and the combat there too so if i can help would be good.

for here starts war carrion birds sing, and grey wolves howl
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Ben Mudd




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PostPosted: Wed 03 Mar, 2010 9:17 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thom R. wrote:
Ben, try this link for google books. page 252

http://tinyurl.com/yfgnf8v

tr


Thanks! It is unfortunate that there's nothing really more about it. Ah well . . . so the figures that you posted were an engraving by a Victorian era artist? I wonder if the original photograph that's mentioned in the text that they were copied from still exists?
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David McElrea




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PostPosted: Mon 19 Apr, 2010 2:17 pm    Post subject: Osprey Galloglass         Reply with quote

Osprey has just published a new book which will be of interest to a number here:

Galloglass 1250-1600: Gaelic Mercenary Warrior

http://www.ospreypublishing.com/store/Gallogl...1846035777

I found it quite by accident last week, and (standard quibbles aside) think it is a well presented book. The artwork is beautifully done as well, by my eye.

Just thought I'd mention it for those who might want to know...
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Benjamin H. Abbott




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PostPosted: Fri 30 Apr, 2010 12:26 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

With regard to the feathered darts/javelins, I suspect they hit harder than arrows and perhaps even bolts when thrown by strong, skilled men. The best modern tests of similar weapons give them considerable kinetic energy. Olympic-level javelin throwers seem to impart 360 J to their missile. Atlalt darts range from 167 J to an astonishing 771 J. By contrast, a 150lb longbow will only manage 146 J with a heavy arrow. Furthermore, various sources note the impact of the thrown weapons. Vegetius wrote that a properly thrown javelin would pierce armor. Froissart recorded how a Spanish javelin penetrated both mail and a coat of plates. Bernal Diaz claimed Mexica darts could pierce any armor; Garcilaso de la Vega had a dart penetrate both sides of a coat of mail. Thus, the weight of the evidence assigns greater power to javelins than arrows. Considering the shorter range, lower ammunition capacity, and slower speed of javelins, this explains why people would favor them over the bow or crossbow.

This modern tests actually suggest that a steel-tipped javelin from an expert thrower might even pierce a decent breastplate if it hit squarely. Given the limited use of javelins in the age of plate and the account I read of javelins glancing off harmless against fully armed men, I theorize that the rather low velocity of the javelin made square strikes unlikely. Even a small movement could turn a direct hit into a glancing one. Also, proper javelin and especially atlatl use apparently requires at least much skill as the bow.

Does anyone know how much these Irish feathered darts weigh? They look surprisingly similar to atlalt darts. Combined with throwing thong, the weapon systems might be siblings.
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Danny Grigg




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PostPosted: Fri 21 May, 2010 9:01 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Please find attached some links to some excellent pictures of original and replica Irish Arms.

http://claiomh.blogspot.com/

This is the site of a living history / re-enactment group. There are a bunch of great pics of Galloglass Axes and Irish swords. Some of the swords look like Albion Swords, but I can't be sure.

This site is connected to:

http://irishmilitaryhistory.ning.com/

I haven't signed up and looked around the site yet, however from first glance it does look like an excellent site with a wealth of knowledge.



National Museum of Ireland pictures

Irish Two Handed Sword, 2 single handed swords and some Galloglass axeheads:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/celticman/346114...105315230/

I believe this two handed sword is the same as below.
http://www.myArmoury.com/albums/photo/5018.html
http://www.myArmoury.com/albums/photo/5019.html

Can anyone confirm?
Does anyone know the weight of this sword?


Ballinderry Viking Sword:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/celticman/346033...105315230/


There's a few more pics of weapons from the National Museum of Ireland here:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/celticman/sets/72157617105315230/

Danny
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Nathan F




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Location: ireland
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PostPosted: Mon 06 Sep, 2010 12:34 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

does anyone have any sources or pictures of irish darts and javelins from the viking period im getting some made and want to have a nice mix of them i am getting 6 made and want them to be as accurate as i can.
can anyone help?

for here starts war carrion birds sing, and grey wolves howl
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Kevin P Molloy




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PostPosted: Tue 14 Sep, 2010 10:01 am    Post subject: Skean         Reply with quote

Does anyone have pictures of Irish skean's from any of the museums in Ireland? Also any info on historically accurate blade lengths?
Kevin Patrick Molloy
"The Prince of Firceall of the Ancient Sword is O'Molloy of the Freeborn Name"... O'Dugain(d.1372AD)
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Randall Moffett




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PostPosted: Tue 14 Sep, 2010 10:30 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ben,

While I have no doubt javelins are able to gain increased power and penetration it is at a cost of distance. Since most men armed with javelins and darts are not in much armour they seem to be run off by archers and cavalry fairly often. I could not find a single account where they defeated a group similar in numbers of archers, though I could find there use in much of europe, particularly in Ireland, Spain and Italy. They seem to have been very common on ships and in naval warfare. So the increased power does not help unless the tactics are good as they have a very limited usage. That may be why Richard II has such a hard time tying the Irish down as they knew better than pit their javelinmen against English bowmen. At Najera The English archers destroy the spanish javelin armed riders as well.

My guess is that ambush would be the best use as any more open conflict would have to many availible forces to negate them.

I have come across some accounts of throwing spears doing well against spanish in the new world as well but the disparity in numbers against the spanish likel a primary factor.

RPM
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Stephen Curtin




PostPosted: Tue 14 Sep, 2010 5:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Skean         Reply with quote

Kevin P Molloy wrote:
Does anyone have pictures of Irish skean's from any of the museums in Ireland? Also any info on historically accurate blade lengths?


I would like to second this request for pics of scians

Éirinn go Brách
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Lafayette C Curtis




PostPosted: Mon 20 Sep, 2010 6:34 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Randall Moffett wrote:
I have come across some accounts of throwing spears doing well against spanish in the new world as well but the disparity in numbers against the spanish likel a primary factor.


And terrain. Javelins can easily match bows in heavily forested areas where lines of sight and lines of "fire" would have been restricted to such short distances that the bow effectively lost its advantage in range.
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Thom R.




PostPosted: Fri 08 Oct, 2010 11:25 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Although of a period much later than the one most folks here are interested in, I still thought some folks would be interested in this:

Lost Battle of Aughrim painting resurfaces on eBay

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage...92787.html
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Jeff Jackson




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PostPosted: Sat 01 Jan, 2011 6:03 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Interesting article Thom. It is hard to imagine what type of journey this painting had to have taken to end up in San Francisco. Painted in 1885, lost in 1914 and now appears a century later on another continent. Great article, thank you very much.
iaq source
"One sword keeps another in the sheath."
- George Herbert
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Kevin P Molloy




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PostPosted: Sat 15 Jan, 2011 2:28 pm    Post subject: Irish sheild         Reply with quote

Maybe someone one here can help me answer this question, I asked on the living history forum and did not get an answer.


In Katherine Simms article Warfare in Medieval Gaelic Lordships there is a shield mentioned that was carried by Aodh O Conor King of Connacht from 1293 to 1309. The description is from a poem called Co'ir Connacht Ar Chath Laighen which is in the Book of O Conor Don in the Royal Irish Academy. The shield is described as white, depicting a dragon and golden branches. Does anyone have any idea of what this shield looked like and what it was made of and what shape it was. My impression is that it was probably a round targe painted white with the dragon and golden branches also painted on. What are everyone elses opinion's or perhaps someone knows exactly what it was. I find it interesting that there might be some evidence of the Gaelic Irish painting heraldic symbols on the their shields, I'm only speculating on that though. Also it seems this might explain the quote I have seen which says there shields were "coloured in the spanish fashion"?? Perhaps the targes that we are replicating for collecting and living history are too drab. If anyone can provide more info on this it would be appreciated. I'd love to have a replica of this shield made or something like it if I could be semi sure of the historical accuracy.

Kevin Patrick Molloy
"The Prince of Firceall of the Ancient Sword is O'Molloy of the Freeborn Name"... O'Dugain(d.1372AD)
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Kevin P Molloy




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PostPosted: Sat 15 Jan, 2011 2:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Skean         Reply with quote

Kevin P Molloy wrote:
Does anyone have pictures of Irish skean's from any of the museums in Ireland? Also any info on historically accurate blade lengths?


Well might as well answer my own post this one is in the Limerick city museum.



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Kevin Patrick Molloy
"The Prince of Firceall of the Ancient Sword is O'Molloy of the Freeborn Name"... O'Dugain(d.1372AD)
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Kevin P Molloy




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PostPosted: Sat 29 Jan, 2011 2:08 pm    Post subject: My Irish blade display         Reply with quote

My custom Irish Scian from A&A and my Kern from Albion. I'm not the best photagrapher so this is the best I can do for now.


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Kevin Patrick Molloy
"The Prince of Firceall of the Ancient Sword is O'Molloy of the Freeborn Name"... O'Dugain(d.1372AD)


Last edited by Kevin P Molloy on Sat 29 Jan, 2011 8:17 pm; edited 4 times in total
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