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Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Scabbard lacing reference pics Reply to topic
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R. Howard Dawkins




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Location: NE Florida
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PostPosted: Fri 10 Mar, 2006 1:53 pm    Post subject: Scabbard lacing reference pics         Reply with quote

Greetings all,
I’m new to the forum, but not new to the love and lore of historical edged weaponry. I’m presently heavily involved in my other hobby, WW2 Reenacting (USGI), but am now making inroads and shifting some emphasis into developing this recently-dormant field of interest, i.e., medieval military history circa 1100 AD to 1320 AD, specifically the Military Orders of the crusades, and further specifically the aspect of swords, scabbards and suspension systems. Which brings me to the crux of this post: Can someone tell me where I can find a larger copy of either of these two excellent reference images?




I’m in the process of beginning to build/ craft my own version of a c.1230 French knight’s scabbard and belt system for the Hospitaller impression I’m interested in creating. I’ve done an extensive web search for reference materials, and except for finding this great site and the excellent scabbard tutorials/threads, I’ve pretty much turned up zilch as far as photos or DIY texts concerning the methods of medieval scabbard lacing…until I spotted the aforesaid images. I’d like to find a source for a larger version of either or both so I can print them for my personal use. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
I look forward to being a viable and productive contributor to this site!
Rob
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Fri 10 Mar, 2006 3:14 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Howard,
Hello and welcome to myArmoury.com. Here's a thread that covers the second pic (which appears to be slightly larger than what you linked to: http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=4951

Happy

ChadA

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Steve Grisetti




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PostPosted: Fri 10 Mar, 2006 3:29 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Welcome from one Floridian to another!
"...dismount thy tuck, be yare in thy preparation, for thy assailant is quick, skilful, and deadly."
- Sir Toby Belch
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R. Howard Dawkins




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PostPosted: Fri 10 Mar, 2006 4:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for the welcome, fellas! I'm glad to be here! Big Grin

Chad...thanks for the link, but that's the thread I initially copied the image from...only thing is, my eyesight ain't what it used to be, and I can hardly read the handwritten details.... Eek! ...I was hoping to get a larger version, or a link to it...this is the only other thing I could scrounge up...



It's nice, but I was hoping for something with a little more detail....

Steve,
Hello to a fellow Sunshine Stater! It sure is nice, all the warm weather we've been getting lately! Happy

Rob
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Jonathon Janusz




PostPosted: Fri 10 Mar, 2006 6:04 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

You might want to try sending a PM to Peter Johnsson, as if I don't miss my guess those images are his sketches (and copyright to him, if I'm reading the top one correctly).
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Jean Thibodeau




PostPosted: Fri 10 Mar, 2006 6:18 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Definitely drawings related to the Tritonia, maybe Peter can E-Mail you a version at higher screen resolution so that you could read the texts.

Maybe some of the scabbard makers here might be willing to give you some advice even if this might be giving away some trade secrets ? I can't make that decision for them though. Eek! Laughing Out Loud

And welcome to the site. Big Grin

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Kenton Spaulding




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PostPosted: Sat 11 Mar, 2006 10:19 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Howard,

If you save the picture to your computer and open it in Windows Picture Viewer, or a similar program, you should be able to read most of the writing. That's what I did. I'm contemplating my first suspension right now, so I've spent quite a bit of time staring at that drawing. I'm glad you posted, because I'm wondering pretty much the same things.

Does anyone know of any scabbards circa 1050-1150 that would be simpler to make then the commonly seen intricate suspensions like the one illustrated. The suspension on Chad's Sovereign scabbard looks like it may be slightly simpler to construct. Would something similar be appropriate circa 1050-1150?

Kenton
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Kjell Magnusson




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PostPosted: Sat 11 Mar, 2006 2:25 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Perhaps this one might be a bit better?


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Kenton Spaulding




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PostPosted: Sat 11 Mar, 2006 2:28 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ya, that is better, thanks Kjell.

Kenton
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R. Howard Dawkins




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PostPosted: Sun 12 Mar, 2006 2:11 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Kjell,
WOW! That's exactly what I was looking for! My poor old eyes will be forever thanking you! Laughing Out Loud

BTW, after some surfing around the site, I came across this scabbard suspension made by Al Muckart:

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=6325

I was wondering if any of you guys have made a similar one, because I'm curious as to how long to make the renges...I'm working with Tandy's 72" cowhide belt blank, 2" wide...I don't want to cut it until I can get an idea of the correct length...I've got a period buckle and fittings on order from http://talbotsfineaccessories.com/Jewelry/buckles.html and http://www.billyandcharlie.com/belt.html....anybody got some ideas?
Rob
(I thought about roughing one out in thick foam or cloth first, just to experiment...)
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R. Howard Dawkins




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PostPosted: Sun 12 Mar, 2006 2:35 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Kenton Spaulding wrote:
I'm contemplating my first suspension right now, so I've spent quite a bit of time staring at that drawing. Does anyone know of any scabbards circa 1050-1150 that would be simpler to make then the commonly seen intricate suspensions like the one illustrated. The suspension on Chad's Sovereign scabbard looks like it may be slightly simpler to construct. Would something similar be appropriate circa 1050-1150?


Kenton,
Being new to the site, I don't know who Chad is yet, so I can't comment on the Sovereign...but, during my attempts to study the era (and the arms and armor thereof), it's my opinion that the period "Illuminated" references are NOT very illuminating (being somewhat vague in artist conception and detail), and the other modern reference materials tend to state illustrations as being 'conjectural'....I, too, would like to know if there is a period alternative to the intricately woven variety of medieval sword suspensions...
Rob
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Kenton Spaulding




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PostPosted: Sun 12 Mar, 2006 2:55 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sorry Howard, I should have been more specific. The scabbard I was referring to can be seen here: http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?p=65346#65346


Kenton
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R. Howard Dawkins




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PostPosted: Sun 12 Mar, 2006 6:25 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Kenton,
Thanks for the link...and Chad should be proud! I like the effigy rig also...hmmm...I may consider doing 2 different century styles myself... Happy
Rob
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Sun 12 Mar, 2006 6:59 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

R. Howard Dawkins wrote:
Kenton,
Thanks for the link...and Chad should be proud! I like the effigy rig also...hmmm...I may consider doing 2 different century styles myself... Happy
Rob


Thanks! I am proud of it; the makers both did good jobs. Happy The scabbard pictured in that thread is loosely based on the one in that effigy. For an earlier style integral belt, see here: http://www.myArmoury.com/chad_swor_arm_s4.html?6

Happy

ChadA

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Al Muckart




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PostPosted: Sun 12 Mar, 2006 8:01 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Rob,

R. Howard Dawkins wrote:
Kjell,
WOW! That's exactly what I was looking for! My poor old eyes will be forever thanking you! Laughing Out Loud

BTW, after some surfing around the site, I came across this scabbard suspension made by Al Muckart:

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=6325

I was wondering if any of you guys have made a similar one, because I'm curious as to how long to make the renges...I'm working with Tandy's 72" cowhide belt blank, 2" wide...I don't want to cut it until I can get an idea of the correct length...


I wasn't sure of the exact measurements to use when I built that scabbard (which still isn't finished, I did the chape on Sunday but still need to build the buckle and strap end, but that's another story Happy ). What I did was stick it on my hip where I wanted it to be and eyeball the strap lengths. They are both way too long since I just cut a 30mm strap out of a half-hide, but they'll get trimmed once I've got the fittings.

A 72" belt should give you plenty of margin. Try spiralling the belt twice around the scabbard core where it will be laced on with about a 12" tail at the top/front and the rest of the strap out the back, that might give you some idea. I'll measure mine up when I get home and post the measurements here.

For the straps that lace into the scabbard covering I roughly figured out the lengths by wrapping the un-split strap around the scabbard in the pattern it would go in then adding some. I started by just cutting it into 2 15mm straps and tapered them as I went. This is almost certainly the wrong way to do it, but with a steady hand and _very_ sharp knives it does work.

I am in the process of documenting the step by step procedure for building this scabbard and putting it online, but I need to work out how to measure this more accurately. If anyone has ideas I'd love to hear them.

--
Al.
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David Browning




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PostPosted: Sun 12 Mar, 2006 8:25 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Al,

First, great job on the scabbard. I look forward to anything you post regarding the process you went through. I was just about to start figuring out how to make a scabbard when I stumbled across the forum and all the links. Happy

I've been making leather armor for the past year or so (everything from gorgets to vambraces to spaulders to a full set of lamellar armor). I know how much planning, trial and error, and rebuilding goes into the finished project.

So again, awesome job on the scabbard...please post whatever you can in the future. The woodworking part of this had me a bit "puzzled", but I"m sure now that I've picked up more info (from the various posts), I'll be able to get on track

David
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R. Howard Dawkins




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PostPosted: Mon 13 Mar, 2006 8:31 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Knowing Ridley Scott’s propensity of taking artistic license when it comes to historical accuracy, I’m nevertheless intrigued by the design of the sword belt and scabbard lacing of Godfrey (and later Balian) of Ibelin as shown in the movie “Kingdom of Heaven”…





What is particularly interesting to me is the series of 3 renges used to secure the scabbard (as if 2 weren’t confusing enough!)…I wonder if costume designer Janty Yates found this in a period reference, or winged it on her own because it looked ‘cool’….
Rob
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Kenton Spaulding




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PostPosted: Mon 13 Mar, 2006 9:57 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

If I could have a bit of help understanding this suspension please:

I see that belt is split into 3 thongs. My question is what happens to the uppermost thong? I see that it encircles the top of the scabbard, but then what? Is it stitched to itself?



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belt_fitting.jpg

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Al Muckart




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PostPosted: Mon 13 Mar, 2006 10:51 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Kenton Spaulding wrote:
If I could have a bit of help understanding this suspension please:

I see that belt is split into 3 thongs. My question is what happens to the uppermost thong? I see that it encircles the top of the scabbard, but then what? Is it stitched to itself?


I've seen versions of this where it is stitched on to itself. If you were feeling particularly tricky you might be able to thread it through the scabbard cover under itself but you'd need some way of pulling it through.

Another way of doing this would be to build it as per Peter Johnsson's picture with the top strap wrapping around and coming to form the right-to-left diagonal of the crossed straps, and the middle strap crossing left-to-right on the back of the scabbard and being used to lace the belt shut around the scabbard.

One thing I've never managed to work out from that picture is if the two thongs are coming down the sides of the belt, rather than crossing over at the back, what stops the lower portion of the belt sliding up the scabbard - a really tight fit?[/img]

--
Al.
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Al Muckart




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PostPosted: Mon 13 Mar, 2006 10:53 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

R. Howard Dawkins wrote:
Knowing Ridley Scott’s propensity of taking artistic license when it comes to historical accuracy, I’m nevertheless intrigued by the design of the sword belt and scabbard lacing of Godfrey (and later Balian) of Ibelin as shown in the movie “Kingdom of Heaven”…

What is particularly interesting to me is the series of 3 renges used to secure the scabbard (as if 2 weren’t confusing enough!)…I wonder if costume designer Janty Yates found this in a period reference, or winged it on her own because it looked ‘cool’….
Rob


Albion's Solingen scabbard is built with three straps like this.

http://www.albion-swords.com/swords/johnsson/solingenscabbard.htm

I have no idea what the justification for it is though but I strongly suspect that this is one of these things that saw a lot of minor variation throughout the medieval period depending on when, where, and by whom the scabbard was being made.

--
Al.
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