myArmoury.com - Ref ancient swords found in rivers.. Why?

Jeroen Zuiderwijk

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Posts: 740 Location: Netherlands

Fri 28 Apr, 2006 1:33 am

Fabrice Cognot wrote:

Sweet !

Mooking forward to seeing it in person ( 6 days now...)

And the second is finished as well!

http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s...post765179

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Sorry for taking this thread OT, guys.

Well, these swords are based on river finds, so in a way on topic :)

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Fabrice Cognot

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Posts: 354 Location: Dijon

Fri 28 Apr, 2006 11:40 am

Utterly sweet !!

Too bad I won't have time to take you to the museum in Chalon (a mere 70 kms south of Dijon) - they have litteraly thouands of BA swords there (and helmets, and breastplates, and axes, and.....)

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Geoff Wood

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Posts: 634 Location: UK

Mon 08 May, 2006 12:44 pm

off-topic thanks

Jeroen Zuiderwijk wrote:

Fabrice Cognot wrote:

Sweet !

Mooking forward to seeing it in person ( 6 days now...)

And the second is finished as well!

http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s...post765179

Quote:

Sorry for taking this thread OT, guys.

Well, these swords are based on river finds, so in a way on topic :)

Mr Zuiderwijk
Whether on or off-topic, thanks for posting here with the links about these bronze swords. You opened my eyes to a new area and as a result I received a Ewart Park (lovely light weight little thing) from Neil Burridge this morning. You've widened my tastes by about ten centuries.
regards
Geoff Wood

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Fabrice Cognot

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Posts: 354 Location: Dijon

Mon 08 May, 2006 1:30 pm

Now I cansay I got the chance to handle these swords.

And they're fantastic !

Thanks, Jeroen !

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Al Muckart

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Posts: 309 Location: NZ

Mon 08 May, 2006 9:15 pm

Joe Fults wrote:

Could it simply be that a sword dropped on the ground was easier for somebody to pick up?

Metal has value and valuable things tend to get picked up. A sword dropped in the river probably has a much greater chance of staying there if not immediately recovered, simply because its more out of sight. Want a simple modern equivalent, drop a silver dollar in a parking lot and another in a river. Guess which one stays (essentially) where dropped the longest.

The other side of this is that people, particularly in modern times, dredge rivers a whole lot more often than they perform serious stock removal on chunks of dry land so things in rivers have a somewhat higher chance of being found in the first place.

If there are any chemists or geologists around, perhaps they can confirm this, but I also have a feeling that certain types of river deposits are essentially anoxic, and things buried in an anoxic environment will last longer.

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Joe Fults

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Posts: 3,646 Location: Midwest

Mon 08 May, 2006 9:24 pm

Al Muckart wrote:

Joe Fults wrote:

Could it simply be that a sword dropped on the ground was easier for somebody to pick up?

Metal has value and valuable things tend to get picked up. A sword dropped in the river probably has a much greater chance of staying there if not immediately recovered, simply because its more out of sight. Want a simple modern equivalent, drop a silver dollar in a parking lot and another in a river. Guess which one stays (essentially) where dropped the longest.

The other side of this is that people, particularly in modern times, dredge rivers a whole lot more often than they perform serious stock removal on chunks of dry land so things in rivers have a somewhat higher chance of being found in the first place.

If there are any chemists or geologists around, perhaps they can confirm this, but I also have a feeling that certain types of river deposits are essentially anoxic, and things buried in an anoxic environment will last longer.

Not around here.

River navigation, and with it channelizing, on all but the largest bodies of water died out many years ago.

Development of malls, other retail centers, office centers, and housing on the other hand, eats through incredible farmland acrage each year. Then again, here is not really the primary area of discussion. I'm only mentioning it to point out that context (experience, time and location) plays a big role in defining the assumptions we bring to this conversation, and to acknowledge the fact that my perspective may be limited by my frame of reference. :cool:

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Al Muckart

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Posts: 309 Location: NZ

Mon 08 May, 2006 9:37 pm

Joe Fults wrote:

Al Muckart wrote:

The other side of this is that people, particularly in modern times, dredge rivers a whole lot more often than they perform serious stock removal on chunks of dry land so things in rivers have a somewhat higher chance of being found in the first place.

If there are any chemists or geologists around, perhaps they can confirm this, but I also have a feeling that certain types of river deposits are essentially anoxic, and things buried in an anoxic environment will last longer.

Not around here.

River navigation, and with it channelizing, on all but the largest bodies of water died out many years ago.

Development of malls, other retail centers, office centers, and housing on the other hand, eats through incredible farmland acrage each year. Then again, here is not really the primary area of discussion. I'm only mentioning it to point out that context (experience, time and location) plays a big role in defining the assumptions we bring to this conversation, and to acknowledge the fact that my perspective may be limited by my frame of reference. :cool:

Good point. I was thinking of things like the Thames - partly because in stuff I've been reading lately there are lots of references to it :) - rather than smaller rural rivers.

Hmm, I wonder whether there is any correlation beyond that of relative local population sizes in the number of objects found in small rural rivers and ponds vs large navigable rivers.

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Geoff Wood

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Posts: 634 Location: UK

Tue 09 May, 2006 9:08 am

Al Muckart wrote:

[

If there are any chemists or geologists around, perhaps they can confirm this, but I also have a feeling that certain types of river deposits are essentially anoxic, and things buried in an anoxic environment will last longer.

Hi Al
Not a chemist, but used to be microbiologist, and yes, lots of river muds are anoxic. There's usually a thin surface layer that is oxic, and after that, nothing diffuses in any further, all of the oxygen is used up, and most of the bacterial life thrives on a variety of other things to reduce. Sulfate is a common one, hence the lovely H2S smell of the disturbed mud. it has been suggested that the reason some finds are far more corroded on one face than the other is the way they were lying when first thrown in, top side was still in oxygen and rusted for a while until covered, bottom side was into the anoxic stuff and didn't.
regards
Geoff

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Rob Miller

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Posts: 149 Location: scotland

Wed 10 May, 2006 6:48 am

It may give a better insight to consider that the Ancient Britons believed empirically in the 'Otherworld'and that the doors to this otherworld were located in the Earth,Mountains and Rivers.Consider a fallen Warrior being armed for the afterlife,the sword was literally being thrown out to them,they were similarily supplied with food and wealth to sustain them,water was the thin membrane between this World and the next.
this is simply another version of the burial of grave goods along with the body,as practiced in Ancient Egypt and subsequently.So where is the body?buried of course,or burned,flesh rots,and people had a great deal more respect for their source of life than we do now,and also recognised that theBody is not the Spirit.

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Jeroen Zuiderwijk

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Posts: 740 Location: Netherlands

Wed 10 May, 2006 10:11 am

Multi-reply

Fabrice Cognot wrote:

Utterly sweet !!

Too bad I won't have time to take you to the museum in Chalon (a mere 70 kms south of Dijon) - they have litteraly thouands of BA swords there (and helmets, and breastplates, and axes, and.....)

Hmm... I have to ask Paul whether he'd be interested in going there next time we go to Dijon!

Geoff Wood wrote:

Mr Zuiderwijk
Whether on or off-topic, thanks for posting here with the links about these bronze swords. You opened my eyes to a new area and as a result I received a Ewart Park (lovely light weight little thing) from Neil Burridge this morning. You've widened my tastes by about ten centuries.
regards
Geoff Wood

You're welcome! And congrats on receiving your Ewart Park.

Fabrice Cognot wrote:

Now I cansay I got the chance to handle these swords.

And they're fantastic !

Thanks, Jeroen !

Thanks! And thanks again for organizing such a great event! I hope to get back there in the future. I can't promise when, but hopefully I'll be back there, and with a bit of luck with a bit more equipment and experience. Swordfighting rocks! :cool:

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