I've noticed a strange phenomenon that I wanted to share with the people here on myArmoury. To anyone whom I speak to about historic European swords, I inevitably ask them how heavy they think swords are, and then explain that in actual fact, most single handed sword and long swords are in the range of 2 to 4 lbs., much to their amazement. Yet, from those people who have actually handled my Albion Knight, 15th C Bastard and Sempach, I've had interesting responses some of the time. Not infrequently, when people have picked up one of my swords, the first thing they comment is "Ooh- it's heavy." So why do you think these people think the swords are heavy? All of them have a very good idea of what 2 to 4 lbs. of weight feels like, having inevitably spent significantly more time on this earth than me. And two to four pounds is not heavy, not by any stretch of the imagination. Nor are any of these people sport fencers, to my knowledge, which rules out being used to a feather light foil. How is it then that light swords somehow seem "heavy" to people?

My initial guess is that because higher end swords feel like most of the mass is concentrated in the hilt, when someone first picks up a sword, they're inclined to think it's heavy; it's only if they have a chance to actually cut with it that they can realize that swords are dynamic weapons. I want to hear other people's thoughts on the subject though, and I'm curious to see if anyone else has had the same experience as me.

This is a very interesting question and I'm eager to read everyone's response.

I've experienced quite the opposite reaction as you. Nearly every person who's put one of my swords in their hand has commented to me that it was much lighter than they had imagined it would be.

Well when passing my Crecy around my English class (heh, senior presentation), the general reaction was that it was light (with the exception of my teacher, who said it was "nasty" and made some sort of war comment). However, another of my friends said that it was heavy today, which was the first time I've ever heard that.

I have no explanation for this phenomenon. Maybe it has something to do with the PoB being beyond the hilt a bit (~4 inches on the Crecy).

I think the answer probably has more to do with psychology than with physics. I have a shovel that weighs about ten pounds. My neighbor was helping me with some yard work last year and was using this shovel. No mention was made that it was heavy, yet when I showed him some swords from my collection he said they were heavy. All of the swords he handled were much lighter than the shovel (which he had been carrying for at least an hour) and much better balanced to wield than the shovel. It has to be because of some preconceived notion that medieval swords are heavy....

We've had this same phenominonfor 9 years at the faire we used to do. Near as I can figure it goes like this, preconcieved notion + complete lack of expirience(99.9% of people will be the first member of thier family in , in most cases, centuries to handle much less wear/use arms and or armour) = its heavy. And there isn't any real reason for the average person to have any real world comparison to make with the expirience since lets face it stomping about with swords and armour even with the comming of the ren-faire phenom and re-enacting is still an unknow for the vast,vast majority of people. Most of the time a careful explaination of exactly this makes the lights come, not always but most.

I have had several people mention how heavy they thought my swords were - I particularly remember my A&A Henry V which does have a POB very close to the hilt...

Perhaps people are thinking (at least in the back of their minds) about the swashbuckling movie sword fights, and that the sword of 2 or 3 pounds would be difficult to wave around the way that Zoro does. Of course - they are right, it would be difficult - or impossible to fight with a sword the way the movies often display it.

Hmmm...very interesting topic. I spent the majority of today swinging a 3lb hammer putting up some posts and it made me think as I was bashing away about how swords in that weight range must have felt heavy after a few minutes of swinging at moving targets. The Albion I got to see at the NC Ren Faire did seem heavy, but this is from someone who's limited experience is with wall hangers and low end reproductions. Any idea how long a Medieval soldier or knight averaged in combat? I would think that the arm would tire easily, especially wearing armor.

Ken

More than once I've heard "oh.....about fifteen pounds" when I ask people how much they think historical swords weighed. This is inevitably followed by amazement when I quote the 2-4 pound average range.

On the other hand, I spent several months reading here and on other sword forums how swords were actually much lighter than most people think and I developed my own preconceived notions. When I got my Albion Knight, I thought it was quite heavy even though I knew the weight from Albion's website!

I won't dredge up the criticisims of the movie "Kingdom of Heaven". I liked it enough to buy a copy and have re-watched it several times.

My purchase copy included a historical commentary. Some of the comments were very interesting and probably correct (views on suicide, etc.) I really just about laughed when the historical commentary said swords were very heavy....weighing as much as 20 lbs. I am sure that given a major production budget, they looked into quite a bit of information. This was probably just taken for granted based on someone's assumptions. To me this illustrates just how pervasive the myth of "heavy swords" really is.

In addition to what was said, I think there is an issue about perceived volume and expected mass. I mean, when I receive swords in a box, the box always seems light. The sword alone feels heavier. I think this is caused by the volume of the box being far greater than the volume of the sword, while weights are about the same...
People may be simply surprised by how dense a sword is. And the shape of a sword could be misleading to those not used to it, that is, the average person will judge more accurately of the weight of a box or a bar than of the weight of a sword, just by seeing it.

I can also relate to the comment about a sword feeling "heavy today". There are times when even my boken seems heavy, and times when my heaviest sword feels light. It must have to do with the state of mind (and general physic state, of course, you shouldn't handle a sword while half asleep ;) ).

A couple of years ago, I purchased a CAS Iberia Claymore for a friend’s 40th birthday. I went for the highest quality model they carried, the all-steel version. It weighed in at 7 pounds. As a former weight-lifter, I figured that I could handle the sword pretty easily.

When the sword arrived, it was a sober awakening for me – I couldn’t use it as a practical weapon. The problem was that I hadn’t counted on the physics of the situation: I considered only the mass of the sword, not the weight. Someone who understands physics better than I can explain this in more detail, but my understanding is that the force needed to balance the “weight” of a sword is directly related to the mass of the sword and the distance from your body.

In a nutshell, if you hold a sword perfectly straight up or straight down, all of the mass is centered at one point. In this orientation, the sword feels “light” in the hand. As soon as you move the blade away from your body, the mass of the blade is multiplied by the distance from the center of gravity of the sword (edit: Change in orientation doesn't alter the mass of the sword, but it does have a profound effect on the perceived weight). For example (assuming that I have calculated this correctly, which is a pretty big assumption on my part), if you had a magical three foot stick that was weightless and you put a two pound weight on the end of it, holding the stick straight up, you’d feel two pounds. Holding the stick horizontal to the ground, it would feel like six pounds.

So to get the true moment (weight) of a sword, you’d need to know the mass of each section and multiply it by the distance from the center of gravity of the sword. If someone would like to volunteer to section their sword in one inch increments, we could do this right. ;-)

I found this diagram on a NASA site. Hopefully it will help clarify my ramblings:

---

 Attachment: 9.79 KB

I think it's gotta be the point of balance. Hold an ArmArt S4B (assuming you can get your hands on one :lol: ) out in front of you vertically, and it seems very light. Hold it straight out horizontally for a few seconds, it feels twice as heavy, cause the PoB is 7" out.

Of course, on the other hand, when my dad first held my Atrim, his reaction was, "that's a fake!" :cool:

I have had both responses when I hand someone a good quality reporduction. Those who say it is heavy I figure are wimps and not worth my time explaining that they need to do more than play x-box all day.

Cheers
Jim

Similiar to Mr. Martin, I believe the perceived heaviness of a sword has as much to do with the relation of its center of gravity to your hand, as explained by Mr. Martin above, as the overall weight of the sword. In other words, the moment (perceived heaviness) of a sword being held statically and horizontally will be greater the further out its center of gravity (e.g. point of balance) is. Anyone who has (statically) held a Gaddhjalt (2lb7oz, COG6.75") next to a Poiters (2lb10oz, COG3.375") should perceive the Gaddhjalt as considerably heavier than the Poiters (although it is actually lighter) due to the moment being about twice as large.

Thus the Albion swords you mentioned, having appropriate centers of gravity, should have felt lighter than anticipated IFyour friends were comparing them to "wallhangers" with centers of gravity far out on the blade. However, I wonder if your friends may have had the mental image of a 2 pound weight held directly in the hand before they handled your swords. I have found that I get a "That's light!" response most often when I let the person handle the sword before I tell them the weight. That way they are comparing the real thing to their traditional, preconceived notions of how a sword is supposed to feel, rather than expecting the weapon to feel as light as a 3 pound dumbbell. In cases such as this perception often trumps reality.

Hope this is helpful,

David

P.S. As I'm neither an engineer nor a physicist, any or all the above is subject to being totally wrong. :eek: :D

I must say I'm surprised by the rapid number of responses to this thread.

Chris, I had a bit of a similar experience when I first received my Late 15th C Bastard Sword. It did feel a bit heavier than I had initially expected, and the ease with which it cut did not particularly suprise me. I think this was due to my rather unusual circumstances; prior to owning my Albions, I had only ever owned two wall hangers (and I hadn't picked up either of them for at least three years) and no other low end reproduction swords. The other factor that I think lead to my reaction was that my friend had recently bought two New Stirling Arms Perfect Long swords, and I'd spent a fair amount of time handling them. Since the NSA wasters handle remarkably well, my Bastard didn't seem to be anything particularly special at first, though I still liked it as a sword. Over time though, I've come to appreciate it more and more, especially given that it feels more agile in hand than my Knight and Sempach, and I like both of them too.

Vincent, I've also experienced the same thing that you've described. I've had times where I've picked up my Bastard and it's seemed quite heavy, which is rather odd given that I knew just how agile it is, and had plenty of time to handle it and admire it before these few strange instances. At other times, I've picked it up and marvelled at how it feels in my hands. I have no clue what lead to these differences of perception, but I suspect that it is related to psychology as you suggested. It would be interesting to try to figure out exactly when and under what circumstances these experiences happen.

In Poland there was a famous writer Sienkiewicz-he even had Noble Prize.He wrote some novels based in 17century and 15 century Poland.He described some swords that only the strongest could use.Even a soldier who could lift and throw other man couldnt swing it with both hands. Many people read this and think that it shoud have at least 50kg. :lol:
It is interesting-what material should be used to reach that weight???Depleted Uranium???
One more observation-children who came and want to hold my sword say it is heavy.Their fathers -that it is NOT heavy-maybe they want to show the world that they are strong :lol:

This is a interesting phenomenon.

Swords, even my 950 g Atrim, might not be heavy, per se, but they have heft. When you hold it in hand, you feel that it wants to go forward.
My lutel feels heavy, at 1410 g, but then again, so does my 730 g (80 cm shaft) broadaxe. My cheap polish made viking sword weighs 1300 g, but lacks the "predatory feel" of the lutel or even the AT, due to a lower point of balance.
Interestingly enough, my long hafted daneaxe (about 2m shaft) comes along as light, while the 80 cm one feels heavy.
The glaive, in turn, is more of a predator, with a 230 cm shaft and longer head.

For lack of better words, it's natural to describe the feel of the weapon as "heavy", though this does not mean that it is heavy to lift, just that it activates the muscles of your hand.

This is very interesting to me as well. My Lutel longsword is overweight for a weapon of its size (about 4.4 lbs, balances at 6" from cross), but whenever a friend has picked it up for the first time they always tell me it feels great in the hands. My friend Andy said that it feels, "pretty much what I expected for a medieval sword", which sums up a lot of their reactions. Another friend, Kiran, said that it was heavy but that it has a definite intangible sense of "weapon" to it. He has handled lighter swords from quality makers before and said that they lacked this "weapon sense".

It's very interesting that lighter, more historically accurate swords from higher-end makers would seem to feel heavy or "off" in the hands of the public, while a bit-too-heavy sword like mine feels just right.

I have an MRL Arbedo sword which is actually rather light due to the extremely thin blade, however, whenever I hand it to someone they will always say how heavy it is. I think most of it is the complete and total lack of experience with swords. Even if someone estimates 10 or 15 pounds for a typical sword, when they see me easily lifting this thin pointy piece of metal, their hand is not prepared for the weight of a steel sword.