[Mike Luke]

There are just some things even armor can't protect you from.

[Nathan Hoin]

Wow, this topic brings back some interesting memories from my childhood. No seriously. When I was about 8-9 years old, I bought a book called Book of the Medieval Knight by Stephen Turnbull. There was a photo from an archeological dig showing a skull wearing a mail coif. Both the coif and the skull were split in two. I was absolutely horrified and disturbed by that photo and the images it brought up in my 8 year old mind, so I had my parents cut the picture out! I still have the book but, um, I can't show you the picture! If anyone has this book (it is a fairly common medieval book, broad and shallow) it was on the bottom of p. 53, next to the funeral effigy of Duke John II of Brittany, the caption reads like this...

"Below left and right: The ideal and the reality: the delicate features of the funery effigy of Duke John II of Brittany contrast with the skull excavated from the grave pits of Wisby which bears the remains of a mail hood similar to that depicted on the Duke's peaceful head."

I suggest looking at actual wounds from battlefield archeology, instead of relying on modern conjecture or medieval exagguration. Perhaps "the grave pits of Wisby" are a good place to start *hint hint*

On a side note, the wound shown was so horrific, I refused to see Braveheart when it came out around that time. When I finally did see the movie, the gore seemed like nothing compared to what could *actually* happen!

[Fabrice Cognot]

The finds at the battle site of Visby have been extensively studied (though with the methods of that time) by Bengt Thordemann - I think his book is on this site's recommanded readings list.


Now, to continue on the topic : Olivier de la Marche mentions in his Mémoires, especially for the Battle of Neuss in the 1470s, limbs being chopped off and bodies being cleft in two by longsword blows - something he directly witnessed.

Fab

[Dan Howard]

I think it was Livy who wrote about the horror of the Greeks after a battle in which the Romans had left severed body parts strewn about a Macedonian battlefield. And this was done with the gladius. (This is but one of many examples countering the idea that the Romans primarily concentrated on thrusting attacks). I don't think that anyone could doubt the ability of a longer blade to do the same or worse to an unarmoured human. Cutting through armour is another thing however . Even padded cloth is extremely difficult to cut through with any sword.

[Rod Parsons]

[Dan Howard]

Nobody from any time period deliberately attempted to thrust through armour with a one-handed weapon. There were plenty of gaps to exploit.

[Geoff Wood]

[Glen A Cleeton]

I don't think anyone doubts the horrific capability of swords against unarmoured oppponets and in some cases the lightly armoured.

Patrick Kelly's deer story is still over at Netsword, along with a good long thread about cow carcasses. The fascination continues and meat/bone cutting seems a valid pastime for some.

I have been involved, somewhat annualy now, with public cutting demonstrations with mats and it does seem to be a real eye-opener for some. To see limb thickness columns being severed like so many lengths of summer sausage and this with little apparent effort, never fails to give some spectators pause. Literally jaw dropping for some.


The anecdotal references from the Napoleanic wars are no less conclusive. Here is a snippet of a good article by Martin Read.

http://swordforum.com/articles/ams/cavalrycombat.php

[Thomas Laible]

this text part cam also into my mind.

Another point: look at Albions tests on the barrel:
http://www.albion-swords.com/sword-testing.htm

Considering this I believe it is possiblöe to cleave into a helment.

Thomas

[Dan Howard]

All that demonstrates is that helmets shouldn't be made from barrels.

Edit: Brass Napoleonic helmets were very thin. Much lighter than medieval helmets. Even so, the blow described in the above anecdote was impressive.

[Nathan Hoin]

Most most napoleanic sabres weren't meant for taking on armour either...

[Glen A Cleeton]

[Benjamin H. Abbott]

Well, according to Alan Williams you need to deliver 200 J or more to defeat mail. From the numbers I've seen, modern athletes can manage that amount of energy with golf clubs and baseball bats. Good tests haven't been done with longswords, but I wouldn't be surprised if strong and skilled men could deal out fatal wounds through mail.

Remember, many of the archers back then fought with 150+ lb bows. Assuming sword-swinging muscles were equally developed, I doubt many of us are up to the historical standard. (I know I'm not.)

It seems much less likely to me that a one-handed swing would defeat mail, though. Perhaps from horseback...

[Thomas Laible]

[Hank Reinhardt]

I've been cutting and chopping with swords longer than most of y0ou have been alive. Back in "68 I was sent some mail from the SCA on the West Coast with the comment that they best knights had not been able to cut it. It was made from coat hanger wire and welded together. (They had been trying to cut in on a hay bale!) I chopped it up and sent it back. I used an original Chinese glaive blade with a rounded edge. One of the toughest blades I've ever encountered.Since that time I have cut mail of all types and sizes, spring steel, soft iton, rivetted, key ring construction, thick and light and light. I have also cut into armor, helmets, even and old one. Thick helmets, thin but well tempered helmets (original Persian, I wasns't very smart when I was young)I once cut a three inch sweetgum sapling in half with one blow, using a sword Flavio Del Tin made for me.(I have witnesses) Jim Fikes, a knifemaker/blacksmith in Jasper, Ala. once cut a 2x4 almost in half, missing it by less than an 1/8th of an inch. I heard later that he had succeeded, and I believe it, but I wasn't there. Jimmy is one of the most powerful men I have ever encountered, and as non professional wrestler and weightliter I have met quite a few, including Paul Anderson.
Not long ago Obata, the Japanese guy who does all the cutting, cut into a Japanese helmet. He cut into it, he did not sever it, and other than the shock the head would probalby been safe underneath.
I have no doubt that I could lop off a man's leg at the upper thigh, cut a man down to his hips, and very probably cut him in half, certainly across the mid section where there is only the spine, but probalby through the chest as well. I am also aware that on my best day I couldn't cut like a Viking/farmer/reaver who grew up working hard and having to fight.
So as far as I am concerned, cutting through helmets, plate, shearing a mail shirt completely in h alf with a man inside of it is all hype. Very muc like the the machine gun barrel that everyone's first cousin's next door neighbotr saw happen in Tarawa, Iwo Jima and you name the place.
Speaking of that, Mythbusters has been in contact about doing a piece on that particular bit. NO, I'm not involved, just telling them where they could get the items they need.
Let me quickly add something here. Bronze helmets are very thin, and could be cut. They were designed to deflect a chance blow, and not to stop a full arm chop. Bronze being heavier than steel, if you made one thick enough to stop a cut, most necks couldn't handle the weight.

[Max von Bargen]

According to at least one source I read, in the very early Middle Ages/very late Dark Ages some warriors wore mail without any padding. This could be around the time of the Song of Roland example quoted above. Perhaps this could account for some of the earlier references to blows shearing off armored limbs and similar things--although they're still probably exaggerated.

Also, referring to Livy's statement, Livy is not known for his strict attention to accuracy but rather to his storytelling, so his writings should be viewed with a certain amount of skepticism.

[Dan Howard]

[Dan Howard]

[Max von Bargen]

Thanks a lot for the corrections, Dan. Nobody mentioned any corroboration of evidence with Livy, and I would definitely trust Polybius. But in your second post,

[Dan Howard]