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Thomas McDonald
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PostPosted: Sun 04 Jan, 2004 6:43 pm    Post subject: 59 lbs. of Milanese beauty !         Reply with quote

Okay, well close to 59 lbs./ 26.9 kg ( the barbuta alone weighs 6 lb 11oz. / 3.05 kg ). and bearing 51 marks

The "Avant" armour , c. 1440-5, Milanese .



Photos : The 7th Park Lane Arms fair catalogue , D.A. Oliver



The Seventh Park Lane Arms Fair catalogue has a most interesting article, by Robert C. Woosnam Savage , concerning this Milanese treasure ( not to mention it's other excellent bits of writing such as "Observations on the Dating of Scottish Basket Hilted Swords" , by C.R. Rolland {a Mac personal favorite :-} , and the ever wonderul Ewart Oakeshott writing on "Bastard Swords" !

Mac

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Last edited by Thomas McDonald on Sun 04 Jan, 2004 8:46 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Bill Grandy
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PostPosted: Sun 04 Jan, 2004 7:21 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ah, I've always liked that harness. I've heard that there is some doubt whether or not that's the original helmet, though I don't remember why.
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J.G. Grubbs




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PostPosted: Sun 04 Jan, 2004 7:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That's one of my all time favorite styles as well. Thanks Mac!~
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James Byrnes




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PostPosted: Sun 04 Jan, 2004 8:16 pm    Post subject: Not Gothic, but Pretty         Reply with quote

Mac,


That harness style is referred to as "Milanese". Gothic armour is far more angular, while Milanese is characterized by "wide smooth surfaces" ( qouted from Robert Macpherson). The helm is inappropriate for the harness, an armet was the actual type originally associated with it. I believe Bob Reed said the Barbute was placed there by a 19th century curator. But you are right , It is a nice harness. The penultimate type of this style is shown on the Funerary of Richard Beauchamp.

"Farewell sweet friend, I was a thousand times more evil than thou. "

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Thomas McDonald
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PostPosted: Sun 04 Jan, 2004 8:24 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bill Grandy wrote:
I've heard that there is some doubt whether or not that's the original helmet, though I don't remember why.


Hi Bill

Yes, Graff Trapp did change the headpiece before he sold it, and the left gauntlet is a copy !

The armour is still the earliest and most complete in Britian today ......
Although the harness "being slightly composite - though all the parts were at Churburg from the time they were in use
( and the makers are)... all of Milan".

Mac

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Thomas McDonald
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PostPosted: Sun 04 Jan, 2004 8:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Not Gothic, but Pretty         Reply with quote

James Byrnes wrote:
Mac,

That harness style is referred to as "Milanese". Gothic armour is far more angular, while Milanese is characterized by "wide smooth surfaces" ( qouted from Robert Macpherson). The helm is inappropriate for the harness, an armet was the actual type originally associated with it. I believe Bob Reed said the Barbute was placed there by a 19th century curator. But you are right , It is a nice harness. The penultimate type of this style is shown on the Funerary of Richard Beauchamp.


Hi James

I'm certainly no expert in things armour ...... and will bow to whatever the more informed have to say *g*

The article does refer to it as "Gothic", as well as being 'Milanese' .... but perhaps it was just some of the characters ,in it's past , that called it "Gothic" within the story ? ( now I'm confused ;-)

R.L. Scott purchased it, back in the late 30's, to fill a "gap" in his collection !

There also was a certain "Churburg Curse" associated with it !

A good read all around , Mac

*Edited so as not to confuse anyone else, besides me *g*

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Allan Senefelder
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PostPosted: Mon 05 Jan, 2004 5:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Milanese armour or indeed the Italian manufacturers made armour of a very rounded sort of "humanesc" for domestic
use but did manufacture "gothic" armours for the export market . The Italian export gothic was styill more rounded in
form than what was being produced elsewhere on the continent ,especially in Germany , but typically had larger
elbow cops or couters , more fluting ( still much less than seen on german gothic harness) and the inclusion
of a sallet helm with a long tail . The plates on Italian "gothic " gothic harness didn't exibit the sharp pointed look
either in the shaping done with the hammer or the outline when cut out that was typified by the German made
"gothic" harness . The term "gothic " has become something of a catchall phrase for about 1440-1500 that
leeds to a little confusion when reffering to armour . Made odder by the fact that gothic was originally refering
to the arcitecture of the period ( more on church's and cathederals(sp)).
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Thomas McDonald
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PostPosted: Mon 05 Jan, 2004 7:25 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Allan

Interesting .... thank you !

Here's a few more fun facts of interest, concerning this suit !

"The armour is thought to have been made by the following armourers .....
The breastplate, backplate, and skirt (bearing the stamp of a Crowned I and Crowned A ) by Giovanni and Ambrogio Corio
(the ZA stamp is also for Giovanni, deriving from Zoan = Iohannes); the pauldrons ( bearing the stamp of a Crowned BE and a Crowned B ) by Bellino Corio , the owner of a workshop; the vambraces (bearing the stamp DS ) by Dionisio Corio, originally a journeyman; the cuisses and greaves (bearing the stamp GI ) by Giovanni di Garavelle ; the right gaunlet (stamped Cross over M ) by the Missaglia workshop ; the barbuta (stamped PR ) by Provasio da Milano, though it has been suggested that it may have been made by an armourer called Pietro.
Bartel made the left gauntlet, and did so probably incorrectly, as he based it entirely on the existing right one, and this gave the gauntlet an extra plate which on other surviving gauntlets of this type is not present. He did not restore mail of lames on the fingers either and these may well have been present" .

"The barbuta contains it's original lining, padded with tow, and rush grass(binsengras)".
"The right gauntlet still retains part of it's original lining at the cuff, as do the cuisses".
"The mailed 'shoes' are still the only known surviving examples (with the exception of those from the Sanctuary delle S Maria delle Grazie, Mantua".

"It is also worth noting that when originally made the armour may have cost about 8 pounds 6s. 8d.
(this was the cost of "one harness de Milan complete that Sir John Cressy bought from three merchants in 1441". )









* Ouoted text & photos : The Seventh Park Lane Arms Fair catalogue, D.A. Oliver .

Mac

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Allan Senefelder
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PostPosted: Mon 05 Jan, 2004 8:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hey Mac ,

These are some dynamite close up photos of the individual pieces . You can pick up more of the constructional
details not present in the almost stock photo of this harness usually shown in print . Thanks for posting 'em .
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Thomas McDonald
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PostPosted: Mon 05 Jan, 2004 11:07 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Allan Senefelder wrote:
Hey Mac ,
These are some dynamite close up photos of the individual pieces . You can pick up more of the constructional
details not present in the almost stock photo of this harness usually shown in print . Thanks for posting 'em .


Hi Allan

Yes, David Oliver, & his wonderful contributors to the Park Lane Arms Fair, always deliver the most excellent pic's, & articles ! I'm constantly amazed !

Slàinte, Mac


* Photo : The Seventh Park Lane Arms Fair catalogue, D.A. Oliver .

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Joe Fults




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PostPosted: Mon 05 Jan, 2004 1:23 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for sharing the pics and comments.

Very nice.

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Jeff Johnson





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PostPosted: Mon 05 Jan, 2004 3:44 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm rather fond of this piece too...

Here's the armet that goes with it (and a replica on the right). It remained in the in Churburg collection when the harness was sold to Glasgow.


http://members.cox.net/jljonsn/history/kit15/Compare2.jpg


Last edited by Jeff Johnson on Mon 05 Jan, 2004 4:27 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Jeff Johnson





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PostPosted: Mon 05 Jan, 2004 4:14 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

And a pic of a repro for the rest of the suit:..



Last edited by Jeff Johnson on Mon 05 Jan, 2004 4:27 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Mon 05 Jan, 2004 4:23 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

And here it is being put to use:
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Thomas McDonald
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PostPosted: Mon 05 Jan, 2004 4:32 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Jeff

Your harness is most awesome .....
And the workout your giving it ( ie: putting it to good use) is truely the effort of a man who takes his training seriously *g*

Thanks for sharing your training tips with us ;-) Slàinte , Mac

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Thomas McDonald
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PostPosted: Mon 05 Jan, 2004 5:04 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Jeff

Question(s) ..... Did CF make your harness ? And .... what does your complete suit weigh ?

TIA , Mac

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Jeff Johnson





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PostPosted: Mon 05 Jan, 2004 6:31 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The cuirass & armet are Macpherson & the arms, legs & gauntlets are from Historic Enterprises. Te whole rig weighs 80 pounds, 10 of which is the armet and 15 is the maile gusseted arming doublet & skirt.. So, the weight comes out pretty close to the original.
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James Byrnes




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PostPosted: Mon 05 Jan, 2004 9:21 pm    Post subject: Damn thats Sweet jeff!         Reply with quote

Jeff,


Damn man, that is a sweet harness! The picture is all the more poignant since I am heading down to Dallas in 2 weeks for the fitting of my harness commission. To say I am excited would be a vast understatement!! LOl, as an aside, when you first completed your harness purchases, did you find yourself looking for excuses to put it on and walk arond in it? Or did you even bother with excuses and just don it for the hell of it ? I am reasonably sure I will find myself in the latter category Big Grin Again, beautiful picture, wear it in good health Sir.




James

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Allan Senefelder
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PostPosted: Tue 06 Jan, 2004 6:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jeff,

Thats a really spectacular looking harness! Who did the sword accompanying it in the photo?
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Thomas McDonald
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PostPosted: Tue 06 Jan, 2004 8:29 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Allan Senefelder wrote:
Jeff,
Who did the sword accompanying it in the photo?


Just guessing ......
It looks like the Schloss Erbach that Arms & Armor makes !


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