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Russ Ellis
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PostPosted: Tue 06 Jan, 2004 8:42 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

What's this business about a curse?
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Thomas McDonald
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PostPosted: Tue 06 Jan, 2004 9:10 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Russ Ellis wrote:
What's this business about a curse?


"The following postscript is part of the folklore and history of this remarkable armour. Mann ( ie: Sir James Mann ) thought R.L Scott's death "probably was influenced by the 'Churburg Curse'". He apparently believed that when part of South Tyrol, including Churburg, was ceded to the Itlalians as a result of World war I, Gothard Trapp, "much against his will was forced to sell pieces and in doing so is said to have placed a curse on either the armour or the purchaser, or both. Mann must have been told this by Hans or Oswald Trapp...... It is a fact that prior to 1952 all the collectors and dealers who purchased these pieces suffered either physically or financially...... MacKay ..... Hearst .... Andrade ..... Bartel .... Furmage ... ( and of course R.L. Scott ) The Curse- coincidence or fact ?? ..... Kelvingrove appears to be in no danger, so you may assume the Curse has been lifted .... ! "

* Text - The "AVANT" Armour and R.L. Scott , by Robert C. Woosnam Savage , The Seventh Park Lane Arms Fair catalogue, D.A. Oliver, 1990.

Mac

'Gott Bewahr Die Oprechte Schotten'
XX ANDRIA XX FARARA XX
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Patrick Kelly




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PostPosted: Tue 06 Jan, 2004 1:40 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thomas McDonald wrote:
Allan Senefelder wrote:
Jeff,
Who did the sword accompanying it in the photo?


Just guessing ......
It looks like the Schloss Erbach that Arms & Armor makes !



Mac's right. It's my old Schloss Erbach that Jeff bought from me, complete with a scabbard and belt by Eric Mchugh.

"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Jeff Johnson





Joined: 05 Jan 2004

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PostPosted: Tue 06 Jan, 2004 1:52 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I wondered if Patrick would see his "old" sword and recognize her. Cool

Although the Scloss E. post-dates the armor by about 20 years, it's a damned fine back-up weapon for the poll-axe, & just the kind of beefy sword I'd use for half-sword work.

Mac, although it's in profile & not shown well, my primary weapon standing behind me is the very same A&A poll-axe you've posted pics of a few times - the one I had customized with a butt-spike.
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Thomas McDonald
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PostPosted: Tue 06 Jan, 2004 3:14 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Jeff

Yes, I remember posting those pic's ...... and so I shall again *g*

I've always wanted A&A's Knightly pole-axe ...... it's such an awesome weapon !

Oneday I'll get me one ! Mac


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Thomas McDonald
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PostPosted: Fri 16 Jan, 2004 5:39 am    Post subject: Paging Allan Senefelder !         Reply with quote

For Allan Senefelder :

Hi Allan

I found a picture I took at the Sterling Faire (N.Y.), July 2001, with you holding my old Tinker clamshell claymore !



And for everyone else .......
Here's a composite pic of some of Allan's fine armour work, that I took at the Faire !
Allan , Harlan Hastings, etc., are The Mercenary's Tailor , as sold thru Albion Armorers.

Mac


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Thomas McDonald
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PostPosted: Fri 16 Jan, 2004 5:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

And guarding the booth is one of clanCampbell's finest , partner & chief maille-man, Harlan Hastings !

Mac


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Allan Senefelder
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PostPosted: Fri 16 Jan, 2004 6:03 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Great looking swords ! Don't know about the two schmucks hloding 'em though . Thanks Mac !
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Shawn Mulock




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PostPosted: Fri 16 Jan, 2004 8:44 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thomas McDonald wrote:
Allan Senefelder wrote:
Jeff,
Who did the sword accompanying it in the photo?


Just guessing ......
It looks like the Schloss Erbach that Arms & Armor makes !



I concur.

"It is not what you have, but what you have done".
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Michal Plezia
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PostPosted: Wed 21 Dec, 2005 6:07 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

And do you have any interesting uncommon photos of barbutas?Because most of the sites and books show 2-4 most known....
In one book of polish author I've found a drawing of the barbutas (made by the author) with mail(aventail?-I don't remember english word for that mail arond the neck -sorry Wink ) It looks like Turkish style helmet with it because it covers also half of the face...This author has a bad opinion in the reenactment society in Poland.But there were aventails in armets...Anybody knows something about it?
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Hisham Gaballa





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PostPosted: Thu 22 Dec, 2005 4:23 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for reviving this interesting thread Mac, I think I missed it the first time around. Happy

Unfortunately non of the older picture links are working anymore.
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Jonathan Blair




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PostPosted: Thu 22 Dec, 2005 7:19 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yeah all I'm getting is the little red x in a little white box.
"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." - The Lord Jesus Christ, from The Gospel According to Saint Matthew, chapter x, verse 34, Authorized Version of 1611
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Thu 22 Dec, 2005 7:54 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jonathan Blair wrote:
Yeah all I'm getting is the little red x in a little white box.


This thread is nearly two years old. It wouldn't be unheard of for URL's to change in the course of that time. Happy

In fact, Mac no longer uses Ezshots for his pic hosting, hence the red x's. He's changed to Photobucket instead.

Happy

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Thomas McDonald
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PostPosted: Fri 23 Dec, 2005 5:47 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yes, unfortunately EZ Shots decided to shut down on us without any warning, so alot of my picture links were lost !

I do have Bob Savage's article, The 'AVANT' Armour and R.L. Scott, from the Park Lane Arms Fair catalogue, still on file if anyone wishes a copy (just e-mail me and address that I can attach files to and I'll send it along)

Mac
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Archie Zietman





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PostPosted: Tue 10 Jan, 2006 6:43 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I talked with Tobias Capwell curator of the Glasgow Collection a wee bit after his lecture at the Armour Research Society Conference, and apparently there's an armet in another museum which is thought to be the true helmet. can't see why they don't just ship it over for at least a photo shoot with both harness and helmet. also some controversy over the left? gaunlet, though the reproduction may well be accurate.
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Peter Fuller
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PostPosted: Thu 12 Jan, 2006 12:04 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This is the story as I understand it;

Trapp decided to sell the armour, because he needed some cash and it was not associated to any of his ancesters. It originally had an armet with it, but was missing the left gauntlet. The armet had the stalk for a crest, and if you have access to a copy of "The Armoury of the Castle of Churburg", you can see the armet with it's crest stalk intact, on the armour. Trapp decided to keep the armet, because it was the only one in the collection that had the crest stalk, so when he put the armour up for sale, he swapped the armet for an unassociated barbute in the collection. Hearst purchased the armour, and it stayed on one of his estates in England, where he had a fellow take care of it for him (can't remember his name). Hearst had this same person produce a replacement for the missing left gauntlet, and what he did was simply copy the right one. The left gauntlet would have had a single piece cuff and metacarple plate, instead of the two-piece configuration of the right, so the copy is incorrect. Hearst then needed to liquidate some assests, so he sold the armour to Scott, who bequeathed it to the Glasgow Museum when he died.

I got this information from a book in the Glenbow Museum. Next time I'm down there, I'll have another look at it, and give you the name of the book, and confirm the story.
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