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Matthew Amt
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 Posted: Wed 03 Dec, 2014 5:40 am Post subject: |
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| William P wrote: | | as fir the adoption of the early cuir boulli chest protectors for tourneys at least it's obvious why they were chosen, since mailles greatest weakness is the fact it has almost no shock resistance aka it transfers all the force right to your body, cuitr boulli is very rigid so would be able to much better absorb the impact of tourney weapons, especially the lance, even a blanted lance couched under the arm at full speed would cause severe injury to the body due to the sheer concentration of force alone. |
It's not obvious to me, since simple iron plate had been doing exactly that for almost 2000 years at that point. Just sayin'...
Matthew
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Philip Dyer
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| Posted: Wed 03 Dec, 2014 7:20 am Post subject: |
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| Dan Howard wrote: | | William P wrote: | | as fir the adoption of the early cuir boulli chest protectors for tourneys at least it's obvious why they were chosen, since mailles greatest weakness is the fact it has almost no shock resistance aka it transfers all the force right to your body, cuitr boulli is very rigid so would be able to much better absorb the impact of tourney weapons, especially the lance, even a blanted lance couched under the arm at full speed would cause severe injury to the body due to the sheer concentration of force alone. |
Sometimes. It depends on the mail. We have plenty of accounts of riders wearing mail being able to continue fighting even after being hit with multiple lances - sharpened war lances, not blunted ones. |
Isn't there also acount of thick cloth jackets stuffed with felt or several layers of linen doing the same thing as Curibolli, dispating shock force before in travels through the mail and person? Also, I think it also aids dispating the effects of bow and crossbow fire because an arrow shape most effective againist mail is inefficent againist textile defense and a arrow effecient againist cloth is ineffective againist mail. Also, anyone know what the shapes of medieval lance heads were like?
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Pieter B.
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| Posted: Wed 03 Dec, 2014 8:22 am Post subject: |
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| Philip Dyer wrote: | | Dan Howard wrote: | | William P wrote: | | as fir the adoption of the early cuir boulli chest protectors for tourneys at least it's obvious why they were chosen, since mailles greatest weakness is the fact it has almost no shock resistance aka it transfers all the force right to your body, cuitr boulli is very rigid so would be able to much better absorb the impact of tourney weapons, especially the lance, even a blanted lance couched under the arm at full speed would cause severe injury to the body due to the sheer concentration of force alone. |
Sometimes. It depends on the mail. We have plenty of accounts of riders wearing mail being able to continue fighting even after being hit with multiple lances - sharpened war lances, not blunted ones. |
Isn't there also acount of thick cloth jackets stuffed with felt or several layers of linen doing the same thing as Curibolli, dispating shock force before in travels through the mail and person? Also, I think it also aids dispating the effects of bow and crossbow fire because an arrow shape most effective againist mail is inefficent againist textile defense and a arrow effecient againist cloth is ineffective againist mail. Also, anyone know what the shapes of medieval lance heads were like? |
I really wish I had the source for this but sadly I cannot find it anymore. Do take this with a grain of salt since I didn't bother looking at the authenticity of the source when I read it. The point it brings forward is that 10-12 oz of leather is almost equal to 18 layers of linen. So pretty much your standard gambeson.
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Gary T
Location: Missouri Joined: 10 Mar 2014
Posts: 40
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| Posted: Wed 03 Dec, 2014 10:10 am Post subject: |
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Philip Dyer wrote:
| Quote: | | Isn't there also acount of thick cloth jackets stuffed with felt or several layers of linen doing the same thing as Curibolli, dispating shock force before in travels through the mail and person? |
A bit of a difference in how it's done though. Regarding blunt trauma, the padding will deform - the hope is a breastplate will not. I think I'd rather have something rigid protecting my ribs and the organs beneath, though padding would be helpful in addition.
Pieter B wrote:
| Quote: | | I really wish I had the source for this but sadly I cannot find it anymore. Do take this with a grain of salt since I didn't bother looking at the authenticity of the source when I read it. The point it brings forward is that 10-12 oz of leather is almost equal to 18 layers of linen. So pretty much your standard gambeson. |
I'd be careful with that. There are a number of factors to both consider and verify about any testing.
A few that I see is there is no mention of how the 10-12 oz lather was tanned, and 18 layers of linen is a bit thin. The most common i have seen is 27 layers, and this was odd number was mentioned in at least two completely separate sources.
Another question is what is the weight and weave of the linen? Linen in the middle ages apparently had a tighter weave than modern linen. Also, were the layers of linen put together with the weave only going one way or did the layers "cross" for reinforcement?
Also, I'd like to put in this excerpt from Dr. William's work, I think most on here agree his testing of armor and weapons seems to be the most accurate of any modern testing:
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Arrowhead vs. Buff Leather 30 J
Lance vs. Cuir-boulli 30-20 J
Lance vs. Padding (16 layers linen, 60g for 16 x 21 cm) 50 J |
I might mention a buff leather coat is usually in the 8-10 oz weight category, though I'm not sure about the sample listed above, nor the thickness of cuirboilli. But both of these performed a fair amount worse than the 16 layer padding - which again, is a very thin gambeson.
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Dan Howard
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| Posted: Wed 03 Dec, 2014 12:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Pieter B. wrote: | | I really wish I had the source for this but sadly I cannot find it anymore. Do take this with a grain of salt since I didn't bother looking at the authenticity of the source when I read it. The point it brings forward is that 10-12 oz of leather is almost equal to 18 layers of linen. So pretty much your standard gambeson. |
Proper quilting makes a huge difference. You can dramatically increase the protectiveness of layered linen simply by employing tight rows of quilting. The closer the rows are together, the more rigid the result. Take a look at the arm guards on modern kendo armour.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen and Sword Books
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Philip Dyer
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| Posted: Wed 03 Dec, 2014 12:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Gary T wrote: | Philip Dyer wrote:
| Quote: | | Isn't there also acount of thick cloth jackets stuffed with felt or several layers of linen doing the same thing as Curibolli, dispating shock force before in travels through the mail and person? |
A bit of a difference in how it's done though. Regarding blunt trauma, the padding will deform - the hope is a breastplate will not. I think I'd rather have something rigid protecting my ribs and the organs beneath, though padding would be helpful in addition.
Pieter B wrote:
| Quote: | | I really wish I had the source for this but sadly I cannot find it anymore. Do take this with a grain of salt since I didn't bother looking at the authenticity of the source when I read it. The point it brings forward is that 10-12 oz of leather is almost equal to 18 layers of linen. So pretty much your standard gambeson. |
I'd be careful with that. There are a number of factors to both consider and verify about any testing.
A few that I see is there is no mention of how the 10-12 oz lather was tanned, and 18 layers of linen is a bit thin. The most common i have seen is 27 layers, and this was odd number was mentioned in at least two completely separate sources.
Another question is what is the weight and weave of the linen? Linen in the middle ages apparently had a tighter weave than modern linen. Also, were the layers of linen put together with the weave only going one way or did the layers "cross" for reinforcement?
Also, I'd like to put in this excerpt from Dr. William's work, I think most on here agree his testing of armor and weapons seems to be the most accurate of any modern testing:
| Quote: |
Arrowhead vs. Buff Leather 30 J
Lance vs. Cuir-boulli 30-20 J
Lance vs. Padding (16 layers linen, 60g for 16 x 21 cm) 50 J |
I might mention a buff leather coat is usually in the 8-10 oz weight category, though I'm not sure about the sample listed above, nor the thickness of cuirboilli. But both of these performed a fair amount worse than the 16 layer padding - which again, is a very thin gambeson. |
Deform over time. We are both talking about defense to be worn over mail and a aketon, you underestimate how rigid textile armour can be made, it can made surprising rigid. Leather can made extremely rigid, by leather, for several reasons in while more expensive than textiles and since we are both talking to be worn with mail and light padding and not in lieu of it, it is not clear cut thing, we could also factor in different in shield design in war and tourney to determine tourney armor choice. https://costumegirl.wordpress.com/2010/04/01/the-making-of-a-medieval-gambeson/ Just leave this here,.
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Pieter B.
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| Posted: Wed 03 Dec, 2014 1:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Gary T wrote: | Philip Dyer wrote:
| Quote: | | Isn't there also acount of thick cloth jackets stuffed with felt or several layers of linen doing the same thing as Curibolli, dispating shock force before in travels through the mail and person? |
A bit of a difference in how it's done though. Regarding blunt trauma, the padding will deform - the hope is a breastplate will not. I think I'd rather have something rigid protecting my ribs and the organs beneath, though padding would be helpful in addition.
Pieter B wrote:
| Quote: | | I really wish I had the source for this but sadly I cannot find it anymore. Do take this with a grain of salt since I didn't bother looking at the authenticity of the source when I read it. The point it brings forward is that 10-12 oz of leather is almost equal to 18 layers of linen. So pretty much your standard gambeson. |
I'd be careful with that. There are a number of factors to both consider and verify about any testing.
A few that I see is there is no mention of how the 10-12 oz lather was tanned, and 18 layers of linen is a bit thin. The most common i have seen is 27 layers, and this was odd number was mentioned in at least two completely separate sources.
Another question is what is the weight and weave of the linen? Linen in the middle ages apparently had a tighter weave than modern linen. Also, were the layers of linen put together with the weave only going one way or did the layers "cross" for reinforcement?
Also, I'd like to put in this excerpt from Dr. William's work, I think most on here agree his testing of armor and weapons seems to be the most accurate of any modern testing:
| Quote: |
Arrowhead vs. Buff Leather 30 J
Lance vs. Cuir-boulli 30-20 J
Lance vs. Padding (16 layers linen, 60g for 16 x 21 cm) 50 J |
I might mention a buff leather coat is usually in the 8-10 oz weight category, though I'm not sure about the sample listed above, nor the thickness of cuirboilli. But both of these performed a fair amount worse than the 16 layer padding - which again, is a very thin gambeson. |
That was the point I was trying to make, boiled leather preforms quite poor unless you get a really thick layer.
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Márk György Kis
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| Posted: Wed 03 Dec, 2014 1:47 pm Post subject: |
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Do we actually have any indication how much did proper hide cost in let's say Scandinavia after the Viking Age? AFAIK we have Anglo-Saxon prices in the vicinity and Late Romans exactly, I'm thinking we could be able to set the approximate cost for a leather armor, may it be leather lamellar or something even worse. That would settle a lot of disputes, and incite a lot more.
In the Edict of Diocletian, the controlled price of an ox hide prepared for using it as shoesole (I'm using this analogy to take some kind of tanning/manufacturing into account) was around 750 denarii, with the avg. soldiers payment of 1000 denarii per month (obviously disposable income was lower since the frequently go their salaries in materials and cloths). I would say, that in a warrior society with no formal salaries, no institutional economy and regulations and a heavily agriculture oriented society, the actual cost of a proper leather armor would be in the skies...
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Matthew Amt
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| Posted: Wed 03 Dec, 2014 7:14 pm Post subject: |
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Determining the costs won't really settle anything (though obviously the information itself can be fascinating and revealing). It is already clear that leather armor was very rare at best among these people, if it was used at all. (Basic Viking-era northern and western Europe, that is!) The mention of the fellow "Leatherneck" in the saga strongly implies that his armor made him a freak. The mention of a hero needing to cover himself with cowhides to resist a dragon's venom shows that nothing ready-made was available. The complete absence of leather armor in militia regulations and ship equipment lists, which are otherwise detailed and organized by wealth level, tells me that it just was not common enough to mention.
In other words, there is very strong "evidence of absence". We're not just dealing with "absence of evidence" here.
Matthew
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William P
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| Posted: Wed 03 Dec, 2014 8:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Matthew Amt wrote: | | William P wrote: | | as fir the adoption of the early cuir boulli chest protectors for tourneys at least it's obvious why they were chosen, since mailles greatest weakness is the fact it has almost no shock resistance aka it transfers all the force right to your body, cuitr boulli is very rigid so would be able to much better absorb the impact of tourney weapons, especially the lance, even a blanted lance couched under the arm at full speed would cause severe injury to the body due to the sheer concentration of force alone. |
It's not obvious to me, since simple iron plate had been doing exactly that for almost 2000 years at that point. Just sayin'...
Matthew |
that makes sense, however these accounts dont show them using iron. they are using cuir boullie, why? the users being kings in a tourney likely had something to do with it.
although this was well before they emergence of specialised reinforcement pieces for jousts and tourney events.
to me it feels like the cuir boullie might javbe just been the equievelent of a simple impact guard. why it wasnt in iron i have no idea. although i agree that iron would have served the same purpose.
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William P
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| Posted: Thu 04 Dec, 2014 8:32 am Post subject: |
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| Dan Howard wrote: | | Pieter B. wrote: | | I really wish I had the source for this but sadly I cannot find it anymore. Do take this with a grain of salt since I didn't bother looking at the authenticity of the source when I read it. The point it brings forward is that 10-12 oz of leather is almost equal to 18 layers of linen. So pretty much your standard gambeson. |
Proper quilting makes a huge difference. You can dramatically increase the protectiveness of layered linen simply by employing tight rows of quilting. The closer the rows are together, the more rigid the result. Take a look at the arm guards on modern kendo armour. |
which probably goes some way to explain the partially, the purpose of the byzantine epilorikion
for those unaware, byzantine armies around the 9th century onwards routinely used gambesons known as kavadia , , however there is a second garment known as a epilorikion, a quilted arming garment that went ovetr the top of whatever metal armour the soldier would be wearing, meaning said troopers would wear 3 layers of armour, arming garment, metal armopur, overarmour padding.
not to mention that it seems likely that armguards worn by cataphracts may be of a textile construction although the evidence for said armguards is kind of thin on the ground as is so i cant say too much with any certainty.
the quilting would have been useful to foul the points of more needle pointed weapons,and helped reduce the impact of concussive weapons which were much more common in the east than in the west
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Philip Dyer
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| Posted: Thu 04 Dec, 2014 10:37 am Post subject: |
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| William P wrote: | | Dan Howard wrote: | | Pieter B. wrote: | | I really wish I had the source for this but sadly I cannot find it anymore. Do take this with a grain of salt since I didn't bother looking at the authenticity of the source when I read it. The point it brings forward is that 10-12 oz of leather is almost equal to 18 layers of linen. So pretty much your standard gambeson. |
Proper quilting makes a huge difference. You can dramatically increase the protectiveness of layered linen simply by employing tight rows of quilting. The closer the rows are together, the more rigid the result. Take a look at the arm guards on modern kendo armour. |
which probably goes some way to explain the partially, the purpose of the byzantine epilorikion
for those unaware, byzantine armies around the 9th century onwards routinely used gambesons known as kavadia , , however there is a second garment known as a epilorikion, a quilted arming garment that went ovetr the top of whatever metal armour the soldier would be wearing, meaning said troopers would wear 3 layers of armour, arming garment, metal armopur, overarmour padding.
not to mention that it seems likely that armguards worn by cataphracts may be of a textile construction although the evidence for said armguards is kind of thin on the ground as is so i cant say too much with any certainty.
the quilting would have been useful to foul the points of more needle pointed weapons,and helped reduce the impact of concussive weapons which were much more common in the east than in the west |
How would something over metal armour act as a
arming garment?
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Dan Howard
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| Posted: Thu 04 Dec, 2014 12:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Philip Dyer wrote: | | How would something over metal armour act as a arming garment? |
The kabadion (or skaramangion) was their arming garment and worn under their armour. The epilorikon was like a padded jack or gambeson and worn over the top.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen and Sword Books
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William P
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| Posted: Fri 05 Dec, 2014 12:49 am Post subject: |
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| Philip Dyer wrote: | | William P wrote: | | Dan Howard wrote: | | Pieter B. wrote: | | I really wish I had the source for this but sadly I cannot find it anymore. Do take this with a grain of salt since I didn't bother looking at the authenticity of the source when I read it. The point it brings forward is that 10-12 oz of leather is almost equal to 18 layers of linen. So pretty much your standard gambeson. |
Proper quilting makes a huge difference. You can dramatically increase the protectiveness of layered linen simply by employing tight rows of quilting. The closer the rows are together, the more rigid the result. Take a look at the arm guards on modern kendo armour. |
which probably goes some way to explain the partially, the purpose of the byzantine epilorikion
for those unaware, byzantine armies around the 9th century onwards routinely used gambesons known as kavadia , , however there is a second garment known as a epilorikion, a quilted arming garment that went ovetr the top of whatever metal armour the soldier would be wearing, meaning said troopers would wear 3 layers of armour, arming garment, metal armopur, overarmour padding.
not to mention that it seems likely that armguards worn by cataphracts may be of a textile construction although the evidence for said armguards is kind of thin on the ground as is so i cant say too much with any certainty.
the quilting would have been useful to foul the points of more needle pointed weapons,and helped reduce the impact of concussive weapons which were much more common in the east than in the west |
How would something over metal armour act as a
arming garment? |
perhaps arming garment was a poor choice of words, i guess i perhaps used arming garment as something as a catchal for padded body armours. although im not too sure why.
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Omero Bernardone Quinto
Location: Rocca degli ottomani (Italia) Joined: 31 Oct 2013
Posts: 7
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| Posted: Fri 09 Jan, 2015 9:46 am Post subject: |
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Everybody citate Williams but his test on leather is quite unusefull, buff leather is not boiled leather or rawhide.
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Dan Howard
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| Posted: Fri 09 Jan, 2015 12:59 pm Post subject: |
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IIRC WIlliams tested one piece of buff leather and two pieces of what he specifically called "cuir bouilli" but he doesn't say how the leather was hardened. None of his leather test pieces performed very well against points. FWIW leather used for armour wasn't "boiled". It was sometimes hardened using hot water but not boiling water.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen and Sword Books
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Omero Bernardone Quinto
Location: Rocca degli ottomani (Italia) Joined: 31 Oct 2013
Posts: 7
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| Posted: Mon 12 Jan, 2015 9:31 am Post subject: |
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He test buff leather vs Arrow but not for lance and cuir bouilli for lance but not for Arrow, this is not a real scientific
test, again he don't say what kind cuirbouilli.
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Dan Howard
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| Posted: Mon 12 Jan, 2015 12:36 pm Post subject: |
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There are a lot of deficiencies in Williams tests but his data is currently the best available. Produce a test that is peer reviewed and more rigorously conducted and we'll use that instead.
We know that leather can be made into decent armour; leather/rawhide armour was very common in some parts of the world. But, the further west you look the rarer it seems to be. Even in Italy it was more common than further north or west. Just because it was used in one part of the world or one time period doesn't mean that it was used everywhere at all times. For example we know that leather armour was worn in late medieval Italy but there is very little to suggest that the Romans wore it.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen and Sword Books
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Omero Bernardone Quinto
Location: Rocca degli ottomani (Italia) Joined: 31 Oct 2013
Posts: 7
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Alexis Bataille
Location: montpellier Joined: 31 Aug 2014
Posts: 95
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| Posted: Mon 04 May, 2015 4:27 am Post subject: |
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Excellent paper, it show us that leather covered jack is better against bodkin arrow than leather alone.
Perhaps that's why west medieval warfare don't use full leather armor, too weak against bodkin.
We also see that jack / gambeson / 28+ layers of linen alone is vulnerable vs broad arrows and adding one layer of leather improve nicely protection against broad arrows.
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