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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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Allen Andrews
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 Posted: Mon 15 Jan, 2007 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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Well this is kind of cool! It will be a good excuse to start thinking about a sword project with OliiN 
(now I just need to quit my job and become a bank robber so I can afford it)
" I would not snare even an orc with a falsehood. "
Faramir son of Denethor
Words to live by. (Yes, I know he's not a real person)
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Mon 15 Jan, 2007 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Allen Andrews wrote: | Well this is kind of cool! It will be a good excuse to start thinking about a sword project with OliiN
(now I just need to quit my job and become a bank robber so I can afford it) |
Think smaller than my sword and the price might be surprisingly affordable.  Maybe you only need to rob a Convenience Store.   ( Obviously I'm joking about that last thing).
If you look at some of the prices on the OlliN site, if you haven't already, their prices are very low considering the high quality.
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Mark G.
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Mon 15 Jan, 2007 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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Jean's geometric calculations seem logical enough. There's a lot of variables to take into account though. For instance if the blade does have a fuller, the bevels don't meet. The right triangles of the blade and removed areas would be the same, but you would still have the weight of the webbing between the fullers. . Then there's variables such as profile and distal taper so there is actually more material removed than what remains. And this is all assuming that the bevels meet the edge in a straight line. Bottom line is that it can be quite tricky to figure out. I used to be quite good in math, but I wouldn't want to attempt all of those calculations and variables. I'd much rather grind than calculate.
I'm not sure if I have kept any numerical data of blade blank weights although I usually weigh them for my own or customer's personal interest. It would probably be a good idea to start writing that stuff down though. I know I'll be checking it out on some of these other projects I am working on.
And congratulations to Allen!
Mark
www.ollinsworddesign.com
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Tim Lison
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| Posted: Mon 15 Jan, 2007 9:24 pm Post subject: |
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Ok, I'm officially frothing at the mouth. Mark, you're more than a bit evil..... I'm loving seeing the progress of this sword , it's very cool. I can't wait to see some of the detail work getting done! Jean, you are a lucky guy!
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Tue 16 Jan, 2007 4:28 am Post subject: |
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| Mark G. wrote: | Jean's geometric calculations seem logical enough. There's a lot of variables to take into account though. For instance if the blade does have a fuller, the bevels don't meet. The right triangles of the blade and removed areas would be the same, but you would still have the weight of the webbing between the fullers. . Then there's variables such as profile and distal taper so there is actually more material removed than what remains. And this is all assuming that the bevels meet the edge in a straight line. Bottom line is that it can be quite tricky to figure out. I used to be quite good in math, but I wouldn't want to attempt all of those calculations and variables. I'd much rather grind than calculate.
I'm not sure if I have kept any numerical data of blade blank weights although I usually weigh them for my own or customer's personal interest. It would probably be a good idea to start writing that stuff down though. I know I'll be checking it out on some of these other projects I am working on.
And congratulations to Allen!
Mark |
Mark: I 100% agree with all of the above I was just trying for a very rough estimate of how much material would be lost in the process: If one doesn't do this small geometric exercise I think I would have underestimated by a large margin how much material is removed. Using triangular shapes gives a rough idea and some things might cancel each other out like web thickness and the edges not meeting at a point would mean heavier than the simplistic geometric model, but hollow grind, fuller(s), distal taper would mean lighter than the geometric model.
In other words the geometric model gives you a ballpark figure and the other factors should change thing by +/- 10% ?
Well this is also a rough guess.
Oh, the statistical approach were recording blank weight versus finished blade weight in a % format should give an accurate idea covering 90% of all sword or dagger designs: Only extreme designs might diverge from this median value or bell curve.
Oh, how much do you estimate the final blade will weight ? Or is it too early to say at this point ? I also wonder how much the pommel and guard will weigh when finished ?
In any case getting to a relatively heavy but still very good handling sword seem more and more possible as well as bringing the P.O.B. a little closer to the guard than I originally and pessimistically estimated at something between 6" to 9".
A new target of a P.O.B. somewhere in the 5" range ( Or just a bit less ? ) might be possible ? I don't want to change at this stage the character of this sword design i.e. micromanage anything: I just think that maybe there is more room for adjusting handling than I thought, but I leave it up to Mark to figure it out with full confidence.
Heavy with strong blade presence but still lively. This is where the " art " of making a good sword comes into play as opposed to just a big chunk of heavy steel.
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Mark G.
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Tue 16 Jan, 2007 5:53 am Post subject: |
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Oh, now that you know what the profiled blade weighs, I can share some more figures with all of you. On the picture with the profiled blade, guard and pommel, The overall weight ended up being 14 lbs. 10 5/8 oz. So in theory, the sword is going to be losing a good 8 or 9 pounds.
It's a bit too early for me to estimate the blade weight at this point. Once the hollows have been put in, there will be a better idea, but even that will change, as I tend to leave a bit extra material on before heat treat.
Since the fittings are something like 3 pounds 5 oz right now, I would kind of like to see them lose about half of that weight. I'm not entirely sure if that is realistic at this point though.
It's also a bit early to refigure the point of balance at this point. The blade isn't to the point giving enough information regarding that yet.
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Kirk Lee Spencer
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| Posted: Tue 16 Jan, 2007 6:50 am Post subject: |
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Hey Mark and Matt...
Thanks for the contest.
My guess was based on very exact mathematical calculations
I remembered that my Arbedo blade had a similar geometry with a blade thickness of about 1/8 inch. The whole sword weighed between 2.5-3 pounds. So I figured if the blank was 3/8s that would be three times the weight of the Arbedo blade or about 9 pounds. But the Arbedo had bevels (no, or little, distal taper) so I allowed for the full weight of the Arbedo sword.
Now here's were it gets really technical
Jean's blade blank was also longer than the Arbedo blade so I just rounded it up to an even 10 pounds.
I was about to submit and even 10 pounds but I thought that it would suggest that I was just guessing and not done any detailed and highly technical calculations, so I tacked on another 6oz for good measure.... (and you know the tang must be alot thicker than the Arbedo anyway.) 
Thanks again guys.
take care
ks
Two swords
Lit in Eden’s flame
One of iron and one of ink
To place within a bloody hand
One of God or one of man
Our souls to one of
Two eternities
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Mark G.
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Tue 16 Jan, 2007 7:05 am Post subject: |
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Argh, so close....
I was a little afraid of the actual weight being such a nice, round number that it might have been too easy for people to just throw out a random number and get it.
Your calculations got you pretty darn close though.
Mark
www.ollinsworddesign.com
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Mark G.
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Tue 16 Jan, 2007 2:37 pm Post subject: |
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For some reason all of the grinding I've been doing caught up with me today. Been aching and sore all day. Not to let that stop me, I got the blade to the point where I'm ready to start in on putting the fullers in. The blade is all marked out and ready to go. Unfortunately, there has been a little setback though. There was a mix up in getting the correct contact wheel I need to grind the fullers. It should be here shortly, though. I hope so in any case. There's nothing I hate worse than something getting in the way of what I'm working on.
So, if you will bear with me, I should have some more interesting stuff for you in a little while.
Mark
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Wed 17 Jan, 2007 8:19 am Post subject: |
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| Mark G. wrote: | For some reason all of the grinding I've been doing caught up with me today. Been aching and sore all day. Not to let that stop me, I got the blade to the point where I'm ready to start in on putting the fullers in. The blade is all marked out and ready to go. Unfortunately, there has been a little setback though. There was a mix up in getting the correct contact wheel I need to grind the fullers. It should be here shortly, though. I hope so in any case. There's nothing I hate worse than something getting in the way of what I'm working on.
So, if you will bear with me, I should have some more interesting stuff for you in a little while.
Mark |
Well usually muscles feel worse not the day after but the next day after that and need a couple more to get back to normal depending on how stressed they were in the first place.
A far as I'm concerned things are moving very fast so a few days doing less stressful stuff seems well deserved rest or at least take the time to recover properly. Well, at least when you start on it again you are starting with something lighter.
Oh, when you feel motivated to do something and something out of your control forces you to wait is very frustrating.
The words " setback " gave me a scare there until I read on and it didn't seem more than something annoying.
I promise the next thing will be smaller and lighter Maybe something more dagger like. ( But more fullers like a Cinquedea maybe ? Or a completely fantasy dagger / knife ? Or a form of seax ? Too soon to commit to any specific thing. )
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Steve Grisetti
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| Posted: Wed 17 Jan, 2007 5:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Jean Thibodeau wrote: | | ... I promise the next thing will be smaller and lighter Maybe something more dagger like. ( But more fullers like a Cinquedea maybe ? Or a completely fantasy dagger / knife ? Or a form of seax ? Too soon to commit to any specific thing. ) |
Jean - Why don't you consider a medieval tooth pick? I think that is about what it would take to offset this beast!
"...dismount thy tuck, be yare in thy preparation, for thy assailant is quick, skilful, and deadly."
- Sir Toby Belch
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Mark G.
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Thu 18 Jan, 2007 2:10 pm Post subject: |
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Oh happy day! The contact wheel showed up at the end of the day yesterday. I'm glad I didn't have to wait too much longer for it.
So now it's time for grinding the blade. I'm not sure how much I can really explain or give details about. It's mainly a matter of getting rid of the material in between the guide lines.
With the fullers marked out and the wheel on the machine, you're ready to start grinding.
After a while, you'll have something that resembles a fuller in a flat piece of steel.
I didn't completely shape the fuller terminations at this stage. Balancing a sword of this size at its current weight between your fingertips is not the easiest thing to do. It has a bit too much junk in the trunk, as they say.... I felt it would be better to come back to the fullers once the bevels had been put in, thus getting rid of some weight and making it easier to balance.
And Jean, there really is no need to feel bad about size of this piece. I'm not saying that I would want to grind something like this all of the time, but I am actually enjoying the challenge of it. Plus, it makes the other swords I'm working on feel like they don't weigh anything, so they feel much easier to grind than normal.
Mark
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Chris Lampe
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| Posted: Thu 18 Jan, 2007 2:26 pm Post subject: |
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WOW!! Those first two pics show how massive that sword really is!! I can't believe the thickness of it at this stage.
I'm amazed that you can grind a fuller that way. I always envisioned a much smaller tool that left much less margin for error. Very impressive!
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J. Bedell
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| Posted: Thu 18 Jan, 2007 3:14 pm Post subject: |
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Its SO PRETTY!!!!!
It's really coming along great! I can't wait to see the finished product...
I must say I absolutely love that pommel, at first I was iffy on the shape but after seeing it in the steel its absolutely gorgeous
So Jean, you said that others of us will be able to purchase one....perhaps I should start saving
-James
The pen may be mighter, but the sword is much more fun.
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Thu 18 Jan, 2007 3:25 pm Post subject: |
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| J. Bedell wrote: | Its SO PRETTY!!!!!
It's really coming along great! I can't wait to see the finished product...
I must say I absolutely love that pommel, at first I was iffy on the shape but after seeing it in the steel its absolutely gorgeous
So Jean, you said that others of us will be able to purchase one....perhaps I should start saving
-James |
That's up to you to ask for a quote. If others want this same design I'm more than trilled and there is no reason why the design couldn't be the starting point and the design could be modified according to taste. Like I said before it could be scaled down in size and weight for a more normal sized sword with the same aesthetics.
I wouldn't recommend making it bigger though. Unless it's for someone 7'5" and weighing 400 pounds ! ( Joke )
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
Last edited by Jean Thibodeau on Thu 18 Jan, 2007 3:46 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Thu 18 Jan, 2007 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Mark G. wrote: | And Jean, there really is no need to feel bad about size of this piece. I'm not saying that I would want to grind something like this all of the time, but I am actually enjoying the challenge of it. Plus, it makes the other swords I'm working on feel like they don't weigh anything, so they feel much easier to grind than normal.
Mark |
Oh, I feel the same way about my A & A Iberian mace: The more I play with it the lest I feel that my Albion Tritonia or A & A 15th century twohander have a lot of blade presence.
I've mentioned it before in other topic threads but when I handle my A & A twohander it sort of feels like a hand-and-a- half to me and this is a 6 pound sword: I just went and checked this out before finishing the last sentence to be sure I wasn't kidding myself. Yup, handling that mace is doing some good things to my wrist strength.
By the way, it could be that wrist strength is the weak link in how heavy one perceives the presence of a forward balanced sword ? Also what gets tired first and where one loses good precision control of edge and where one is intending the edge to strike.
Back to the sword: The fuller looks nice and strait to me! That can't be easy to do without some talent and lots of practice and maybe the right approach / technique. ( IMPRESSIVE )
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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J. Bedell
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| Posted: Thu 18 Jan, 2007 4:55 pm Post subject: |
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Jean,
Considering I'm 5'5" and about 135lbs. I think I'll have it scaled down alot
Really though Jean, its a beautiful design and I am seriously thinking of possibly ordering a scaled down version(with my initials of course, after all a sword with JT all over it won't do me any good )
Mark,
You just keep impressing me with your skill, you do some fine, fine work!
I really hope I can save up the cash to order from you this summer
-James
The pen may be mighter, but the sword is much more fun.
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Mon 22 Jan, 2007 8:05 pm Post subject: |
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I just did a little Photoshop work on the pommel to show what it would look like with the engraved only and the inlayed with copper versions.
I'm not sure which I prefer yet: The engraved version does look very nice and would make some nice shadows while the copper inlay would be smooth and stand out less being just a difference of metal colour.
I used a screen capture of the pommel as Mark ground it from a previous post here.
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You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Mark G.
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Tue 23 Jan, 2007 1:43 pm Post subject: |
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Ooh, I kind of like the looks of the wolf head.... It wouldn't be the easiest to do, but the best things hardly ever are. Your initials also look good though. It's a tough call.
I had a computer crash over the weekend, and have lost all of my production shots for this project so far. Luckily, I just figured out my password for this forum.
It's a bit of a leap from the previous picture of the sword to this point, but here is where it was this morning. The edge was taken down to it's approximate thickness, and the bevels were then ground in, greatly reducing the weight. You should see the size of the steel pile at the base of my grinder! I'm not exactly sure where the weight is at the moment. My shop scale only goes up to 5 lbs, and it's still a little over that. It's feeling a heck of a lot better, but I still have a long way to go with it.
It's very shiny isn't it?
Mark
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www.ollinsworddesign.com
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