myArmoury.com - Norman Era Gear?

Posts: 5,739 Location: Wichita, Kansas

Thu 01 Mar, 2007 9:15 am

Robin Smith wrote:

One other softkit item I forgot: Winingas. These are legs wraps made of linen, worn in the manner of puttees worn by the doughboys of WWI. These really help the kit looked finished out...

One thing about these: They seem to have been a fading fashion by the 11th century. None of the artwork or statuary specifically depicting "Norman" figures shows them being worn. Some of the Norman figures on the Bayeux Tapestry are wearing cross-gartered bands on their calves, but these are different from winningas. They seem to have been more of an english and scandinavian fashion statement. So while I like them myself they aren't needed specifically for a Norman interpretation.

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Hugh Fuller

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Posts: 256 Location: Virginia

Thu 01 Mar, 2007 9:21 am

Also, I have finally saved up the funds and am on Patrick Barta's waiting list for his Abingdon Sword, number 118, with the extra cost silvered pommel and guard. Of course, the wait is over two years but well worth it, IMO. Lawrence, if you want to drool over some absolutely superb swords, go to http://www.templ.net/english/ and just sort of roam around his site. He is in the Czech Republic and he does just superb work. Of course, you pay for it but it is worth it if you really want an heirloom quality item. I was lucky enough to buy his least expensive sword, the Roman Riding Sword, back in 2001 for $250 + $40 shipping and it is superbly made. That is why I am willing to spring for the more expensive sword.

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Brian Ellis Cassity

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Posts: 26 Location: Queen Creek, Arizona

Thu 01 Mar, 2007 10:28 am

Hugh Fuller wrote:

Brian, thank you for putting me onto Historic Enterprises.

You're welcome! But I really can't claim credit; I just noticed that Patrick posted their URL before I did.

Brian

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Robin Smith

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Posts: 746 Location: Louisiana

Thu 01 Mar, 2007 12:30 pm

I love HE's winingas. I have 2 pair. Gwen, is always listening to peoples input, and is a superb seamstress to boot. I highly recommend them!

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Robin Smith

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Posts: 746 Location: Louisiana

Thu 01 Mar, 2007 12:43 pm

Re: Norman Era Gear

Patrick Kelly wrote:

Yes, I think it is. There are groups recreating this period but few of them are doing it really well, in my opinion. Most of the mail won't fit correctly. There'll be too much bland bare steel and brown leather. The equipment will look like a mish-mash of thrown together kit, etc. Not to mention the fact that mail is very unforgiving to the physique and when you put it on someone who's 50-75 pounds heavier than they should be, well......................... :eek: "Normans" often get lumped into groups doing "viking" reenactment too, when in fact you're talking about two distinctly different things. Consequently, a group often won't have the finished appearance that many groups representing other eras do. In the end though, everyones working towards the same end and progress in any of these areas is often slow. Kits have slowly improved at the big Hastings reenactment held every few years, these are pretty distinct when looking at photos from years past so eventually everyone may look as they should.

Right now the 14th century seems to be surging in popularity. Primarily because of it's association with the period fight manuals now being reprinted, as well as it being the period in which we see the flowering of the whole concept of the chivalric code. Substantiation in the form of period artwork, effigies, surviving artifacts, etc. are far easier to come by for the 14th century. Unlike the 14th century and later, or earlier periods like the roman era for that matter, documentation is pretty scant concerning the 11th century so it one of the harder eras to reliably recreate.

With all due respect Patrick.... How could you say such horrible things about your fellow Normans? You're supposed to be on our side. You make it sound like all the later period guys have got it together, and us Normans are a bunch of farbs :eek: JK I know what you mean. However, I think everyone for the most part is doing the best that they can. I know my kit needs alittle more work (better footware, belt buckle, oh yeah and a chinstrap :p ). But all in all, I think with each passing year, we'll get better. And when its all said and done, we'll be Normans, and the rest will just be a bunch of late period fops :p (No real offense meant to you late period guys out there, just ribbin' ya)

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Hugh Fuller

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Posts: 256 Location: Virginia

Thu 01 Mar, 2007 1:36 pm

I just ordered the wickelbanders and the Viking Cap. The lady on the telephone said that they should be delivered before 03/16/07 when I leave for the Jamestown Military Through The Ages Living History Event where the Anglo-Saxon Camp and the VMAA Viking Camp will be re-enacting a small piece of the Battle of Maldon in 991 CE as our tactical demonstration.

If any of you are in the Jamestown/Williamsburg, Virginia area over the St. Patrick's Day weekend (03/17-03/18), check out the doings at the Jamestown Settlement Park. It is also their 400th Anniversary and, believe me in this, Virginia is making a huge deal out of that all year long. If you get there, look for the Anglo-Saxon Camp near the Fort.

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Jeremy V. Krause

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Posts: 1,717 Location: Buffalo, NY.

Fri 02 Mar, 2007 8:00 am

Re: Norman Era Gear

Hello everyone,

As long as we are discussing folks' views on authenticity and the Norman era I thought that I would jump in. I must preface my remarks by stating that while I am very interested in the Normans and their gear, this interest flows from my primary focus in both Norman and continental solders involved in the First Crusade. I look to the Normans and the Bayeaux Tapastry as they may inform me of the grear carried on the First Crusade (1098).

Patrick Kelly wrote:

There'll be too much bland bare steel and brown leather.

Patrick, while I can see your point regarding the issue of the overuse of plain leather- especially peoples facination with the leather bracer- I just don't get it. I do feel that the issue of brightly painted metal is not a given for this period. The Bayeaux Tapastry does show SOME kind of differece in hues across the helms of some of the figures, but to me this may be attributable to use of bronze or copper or cloth or hell- anything. While the direction that you have taken regarding the use of the brightly painted helm is certainly logical- I do not feel that a helm left as bare metal could be seen as ahistorical.

Patrick Kelly wrote:

Right now the 14th century seems to be surging in popularity. Primarily because of it's association with the period fight manuals now being reprinted, as well as it being the period in which we see the flowering of the whole concept of the chivalric code.

I disagree that we see the flowering of Chivalry in the 14th. century, indeed, I feel it is in the 14th. with the increased popular use of mercenary adjuncts to combat units and the emergence of the bougois and guild class that we see the decline of the chivalric ideals and the strict up-and-down class system evident in earlier times. I feel, and this is just my opinion, that it is in the late 11th. and early 12th. century that Chrvalry and fuedalism reach the height of development and are seen in the most rigid and idealistic sense. I feel that, only in the First Crusade, can we find that singular sense of zeal set ablaze by Urban and St. Bernard of Cairvaux. This feeling of the rugged, hard-hitting, zealotry drives my current facination with this period. I see the era 1050-1200 as still retain many of the finer ideals of chivalry and possessing not the posh galantry and faux heroics of latter periods. I also believe that the aim of the First Crusade, though questionable by our modern sensibilities- was more spiritually driven than the more complex issues of trade, pillage, and wealth attainment so evident in later Crusades.

To often, I feel, is the era of full plate and the "knight in shining armor" held as that time of high romance. Knighthood and combat in some ways by the 14th, but certainly by the 15th century has been relugated to pomp and sport, with knights owning 2 kinds of armor and all that nonesense. Give me the era of mail and long broad cutting swords!

Sorry for the long post!
Jeremy

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Patrick Kelly

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Posts: 5,739 Location: Wichita, Kansas

Fri 02 Mar, 2007 9:49 am

Re: Norman Era Gear

Jeremy V. Krause wrote:

Patrick, while I can see your point regarding the issue of the overuse of plain leather- especially peoples facination with the leather bracer- I just don't get it. I do feel that the issue of brightly painted metal is not a given for this period. The Bayeaux Tapastry does show SOME kind of differece in hues across the helms of some of the figures, but to me this may be attributable to use of bronze or copper or cloth or hell- anything. While the direction that you have taken regarding the use of the brightly painted helm is certainly logical- I do not feel that a helm left as bare metal could be seen as ahistorical.

Did I state that everyone should paint their helmets, or that it was done exclusively in the era? I don't think I did but please correct me if I'm wrong. :D Allow me to elaborate: far too often we see people portraying this era dressed in things that look like grey metal and burlap. No, I don't think that's ahistorical, but I don't think everyone should be dressed that way either. As has often been stated, color was an indication of wealth and status. People really need to get out of the mindset that looking "tough" in the modern sense makes us look authentic for the period. Looking like some reject from the latest SciFi Channel movie doesn't present a true representation of the time. It has nothing to do with painting a helmet.

Patrick Kelly wrote:

I disagree that we see the flowering of Chivalry in the 14th. century, indeed, I feel it is in the 14th. with the increased popular use of mercenary adjuncts to combat units and the emergence of the bougois and guild class that we see the decline of the chivalric ideals and the strict up-and-down class system evident in earlier times.

That may or may not be true depending on your point of view. However, it is during the 14th century where we see an increase in literature being written concerning the code of chivalry, how a man should seek deeds of arms and conduct himself therein, etc. It seems pretty clear men of this era were more concerned with acting and seeming "chivalrous" than their predecessors were. The concept certainly doesn't seem to have sprung up in a vacuum during the 14th century but it does seem to have really become the fashion by this period.

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I feel, and this is just my opinion, that it is in the late 11th. and early 12th. century that Chrvalry and fuedalism reach the height of development and are seen in the most rigid and idealistic sense. I feel that, only in the First Crusade, can we find that singular sense of zeal set ablaze by Urban and St. Bernard of Cairvaux. This feeling of the rugged, hard-hitting, zealotry drives my current facination with this period. I see the era 1050-1200 as still retain many of the finer ideals of chivalry and possessing not the posh galantry and faux heroics of latter periods.

I would disagree. it is in this period we see the beginnings of chivalry, but hardly its full development. One of the reasons the 11th century is so fascinating to me is because it contains a blend of the old chieftan/warrior bond and ethos with the beginnings of the chivalric concepts, present in things like the English Housecarl structure and the Norman familia.

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I also believe that the aim of the First Crusade, though questionable by our modern sensibilities- was more spiritually driven than the more complex issues of trade, pillage, and wealth attainment so evident in later Crusades.

Again I would disagree. The first appeals for military aid came from the Byzantine Empire because of lost territories in Anatolia, not from the catholic church for spiritual salvation. That appeal was for military aid not spiritual liberation. Pope Urban simply jumped on board a couple of years down the road. Some of the key figures of the 1st crusade, like Bohemond of Taranto and Tancred de Hauteville, to name just two, were hardly driven by religious zeal. The typical european peasant, woefully ignorant of political matters by our modern standards and blindly led by the religion of his time, may have been manipulated through the use of religion, but the real movers and shakers who made things happen seem to have been motivated more by opportunity than religion.

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To often, I feel, is the era of full plate and the "knight in shining armor" held as that time of high romance. Knighthood and combat in some ways by the 14th, but certainly by the 15th century has been relugated to pomp and sport, with knights owning 2 kinds of armor and all that nonesense. Give me the era of mail and long broad cutting swords!

Now that is something we're in full agreement on!

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Sorry for the long post!

Hey, at least this way you don't have to put up with the site telling you your post doesn't have enough value, so make it longer!

Last edited by Patrick Kelly on Fri 02 Mar, 2007 1:34 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Douglas S

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Posts: 177

Fri 02 Mar, 2007 10:06 am

Brian Ellis Cassity wrote:

Lawrence, stay safe, brother. I was there for OIF III, 2005, doing convoy escort. It seems like a long time ago already. But I'm 37 and life goes by quickly at this age. :\

Hugh, I find it fascinating that your group has its own longship. May I ask who built it for you? And do you know of any longships that might be owned by similar groups in, say, California, the nearest coast to me in Arizona? :D

I remember seeing something a while back on TV about a Viking reenactor who wanted a longship for his group, and I remember thinking, "Yeah, right. Who could possibly afford a longship and who could possibly build the thing?"

I belong to the Bjornstad local group of Regia Anglorum; Bjornstad encompasses California, Arizona and Nevada (until enough members join to warrant splitting off).

We don't have a longship yet, or even a short boat. That simply depends on enough local Regia members having enough interest to make it happen.
http://www.vikingsofbjornstad.gbtllc.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/California_Viking_Age/

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Brian Ellis Cassity

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Posts: 26 Location: Queen Creek, Arizona

Fri 02 Mar, 2007 10:57 am

Douglas, thanks! I'll look your group up on the net right now.

Brian

I belong to the Bjornstad local group of Regia Anglorum; Bjornstad encompasses California, Arizona and Nevada (until enough members join to warrant splitting off).

We don't have a longship yet, or even a short boat. That simply depends on enough local Regia members having enough interest to make it happen.
http://www.vikingsofbjornstad.gbtllc.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/California_Viking_Age/[/quote]

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Carl Goff

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Posts: 196 Location: Florida

Fri 02 Mar, 2007 11:02 am

Patrick Kelly wrote:

Butted mail should be avoided since it's nearly useless as a defensive garment, as well as being the most blatantly inaccurate. It also has the habit of spontaneously disassembling on its own.

Patrick, where have you seen butted mail falling apart? I'm working on a shirt in 14 ga. 1/4" inner diameter links (the only way to get defensive capabilities out of butted mail), and there's never been a problem with links coming loose.

Links getting together in the bag, on the other hand... ;)

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Patrick Kelly

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Posts: 5,739 Location: Wichita, Kansas

Fri 02 Mar, 2007 1:31 pm

Carl Goff wrote:

Patrick, where have you seen butted mail falling apart?

Just about any event where butted mail is being worn.

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I'm working on a shirt in 14 ga. 1/4" inner diameter links (the only way to get defensive capabilities out of butted mail), and there's never been a problem with links coming loose.

I'll concede that your 14 gauge butted mail is probably holding together. I'll also say that it's undoubtedly heavier than it needs to be, since using a heavier gauge wire like that is the only way it will hold together. You say you're working on it. Have you fought it in, or worn it for an extended period of time? Just another reason why riveted mail is stronger, lighter, more accurate and superior.

It's true that riveted mail takes more time. However, the time spent is well worth the end result. With supplies now being commonly available, as well as on-line tutorials on how to make your own rings and rivets if that's your thing, riveted mail is well within the capability of anyone willing to spend the time and effort. When the comparisons are made I simply find butted mail worthless in terms of cost vs gain. If a person doesn't want to go to that amount of effort that's fine by me, since we're not exactly inventing the longer lasting lightbulb here. :D However, the facts are that it won't hold up as well nor will it approach any level of historic appearance. It's a poor substitute.

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Robin Smith

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Posts: 746 Location: Louisiana

Fri 02 Mar, 2007 2:14 pm

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Patrick, where have you seen butted mail falling apart? I'm working on a shirt in 14 ga. 1/4" inner diameter links (the only way to get defensive capabilities out of butted mail), and there's never been a problem with links coming loose.

I've seen links on a butted shirt pull apart under the weight of the hauberk while doing nothing more than hanging on a stand. Not to mention the fact that butted is about as historical as plastic sports armour (at least in the European context).

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Lawrence Moran

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Posts: 17

Fri 02 Mar, 2007 10:17 pm

Norman Era Gear

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From my original post: I am, at the moment, most interested in the Norman era...the period between 1000 AD and 1200 AD. My interests also extend back a little...as far as the 600's. That is a lot of time to cover, I know. I am interested in using this kit to do Living History and Re-enactments, as I mentioned. I would also like to be able to use it for full contact sparring and drills (I plan to get a blunted sword for these drills.)

I have been spending considerable time, heck all my free time here, looking at the Norman Era and something is starting to dawn on me...I like the period but I don't especially like the Normans... :lol:

I am finding myself far more attracted toward the Saxon side. I like the political arrangements a little more and I like the "feeling" of the culture. That said, how much difference in terms of gear are we talking about?

Obviously, the Saxons were equipped a little differently than were the Normans but from what I can see from period sources it was not a radical difference. Axes were perhaps more prevalent among the Saxons than among the Normans but they certainly were using swords as well. It seems the Type X sword was popular, logically I suppose given the prevalence of mail. Likewise, it seems the Saxons were using similar armor themselves. The seax was popular, with both sides it seems. The spear as well. I am looking through some stuff but it seems I would need to acquire a different sort of shield. Most of the advice I have been getting seems to apply equally to both sides, Saxon and Norman.

One wonders how history might have been different if the Saxons had defeated the Normans in 1066...

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Patrick Kelly

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Posts: 5,739 Location: Wichita, Kansas

Sat 03 Mar, 2007 5:48 am

Re: Norman Era Gear

Lawrence Moran wrote:

I have been spending considerable time, heck all my free time here, looking at the Norman Era and something is starting to dawn on me...I like the period but I don't especially like the Normans... :lol:

One thing to keep in mind is they didn't call themselves "saxon". They were, in fact, english by the 11th century.

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I am finding myself far more attracted toward the Saxon side. I like the political arrangements a little more and I like the "feeling" of the culture. That said, how much difference in terms of gear are we talking about?

Not a great deal in the hard kit. Much of the differences would be found in the stylistic elements of decoration. This type of arms and armor seems to have been the general standard throughout western europe in the 11th century. It wasn't specific to the Normans. The english army was on par with any other of the time and the english housecarl was considered one of the toughest soldiers around.

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Axes were perhaps more prevalent among the Saxons than among the Normans but they certainly were using swords as well. It seems the Type X sword was popular, logically I suppose given the prevalence of mail. Likewise, it seems the Saxons were using similar armor themselves. The seax was popular, with both sides it seems.

Wait until you see the custom two-handed axe I'm having made. It should be completed within the month. Just what the aspiring housecarl needs. :D The seax-knife doesn't seem to have been used amongst the Normans, at least there's no physical or iconographic evidence to suggest that it was. I include one in my kit because it's a knife of the period, with the justification that I may have taken it from a fallen enemy, or in trade.

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I am looking through some stuff but it seems I would need to acquire a different sort of shield.

A kite shield will work well for either interpretation.

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One wonders how history might have been different if the Saxons had defeated the Normans in 1066...

Probably not much in the long run. While the english system of government was more egalitarian in many respects, it was also overly complex and much less efficient than the one that replaced it. England would have remained more insular for a time, remaining in the scandinavian sphere of influence rather than becoming involved in continental affairs as it did post-conquest. The overly romantic view of the enlightened English being defeated by the brutish Normans is simply garbage. The English were just as conniving, treacherous and manipulative as any other society of the day, when judged by our standards. The Godwine family themselves made the Sopranos look like a church sunday school class.

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Robin Smith

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Posts: 746 Location: Louisiana

Sat 03 Mar, 2007 6:35 am

Patrick has summed it up pretty well. On the kit end, very little is different. Kite shields were found on both sides. Round shields seem to have been in more favour with the Saxons then the Normans, so if you are trying to make a differentiation that is one good kit item to do it with. But other than that, its gonna be the little things, like your brooches, and wool trims that will really tie up the kit, and make it say Norman or Saxon.

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I have been spending considerable time, heck all my free time here, looking at the Norman Era and something is starting to dawn on me...I like the period but I don't especially like the Normans...

I am finding myself far more attracted toward the Saxon side. I like the political arrangements a little more and I like the "feeling" of the culture. That said, how much difference in terms of gear are we talking about?

Don't inform your views of the Normans from here alone. In general they were adaptable, cunning, skillful, and yes, brutal when need be. From Geoffrey Malaterra: "specially marked by cunning, despising their own inheritance in the hope of winning a greater, eager after both gain and dominion, given to imitation of all kinds, holding a certain mean between lavishness and greediness, that is, perhaps uniting, as they certainly did, these two seemingly opposite qualities. Their chief men were specially lavish through their desire of good report. They were, moreover, a race skillful in flattery, given to the study of eloquence, so that the very boys were orators, a race altogether unbridled unless held firmly down by the yoke of justice. They were enduring of toil, hunger, and cold whenever fortune laid it on them, given to hunting and hawking, delighting in the pleasure of horses, and of all the weapons and garb of war." (my emphasis)
Currently I am reading the Osprey Elite Series the Normans. I also have the Osprey Saxons, Vikings, and Normans but haven't started into that one yet.
One thing you have to remember is that the Normans might seem alittle brutish and unfair to our modern minds, but that could be applied to anyone in these times. Our standards simple do not fit with either group. Plus many of our modern conceptions of them were informed by the Victorians, and they as always elevated all things English (the Saxons) above...
Well, as before, I am happy to welcome you into the 11th Century, even if you are picking the wrong side :p ;)

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Patrick Kelly

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Posts: 5,739 Location: Wichita, Kansas

Sat 03 Mar, 2007 6:52 am

You can go even further and forget about the Norman/English thing altogether. This is also the era of Rodrigo Diaz of Vivar, known to history as El Cid. The spanish/iberian kit would be much the same but with some stylistic differences that would be very interesting to recreate. You could also do a Siculo-Italian Norman impression which would have its own flavor. Everyone gets caught up in the "Good Saxon-Bad Norman" Hastings thing. There's quite a bit of history concerning the Norman conquest of southern Italy and Sicily, much of it more interesting than Hastings.

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Robin Smith

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Posts: 746 Location: Louisiana

Sat 03 Mar, 2007 7:06 am

Patrick Kelly wrote:

Everyone gets caught up in the "Good Saxon-Bad Norman" Hastings thing. There's quite a bit of history concerning the Norman conquest of southern Italy and Sicily, much of it more interesting than Hastings.

I choose to go Norman, because my family can trace our ancestors back to the Norman Conquest. And maybe its just because I was raised to think "be proud of being a Montague. It means you are part of a long line of knights and adventurers.... blah blah blah" that was instilled in me by my father (who also named me after Robin Hood btw), but I was never really about this antiNorman sentiment. In fact, the way our lineage was explained to me, we were doing those backwater Saxons a favor, bringing Continental culture to England.

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Lawrence Moran

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Posts: 17

Sat 03 Mar, 2007 8:32 am

Norman vs. Saxon

LOL...Don't get me wrong here...I am not making a value judgement about the Normans versus the Saxons-English. Or rather, I am not saying one is superior and the inferior. I just think I like the feel of the English-Saxon side more than I like the feel of the Norman side.

I am seeing that the kit is pretty similar, which is good because I like the so called "Age of Maille" more than the later periods. I am not sure I would want to go back into the classic Viking period either as it has stylistic elements I am not really interested in embracing though I do like the period.

One thing I know for sure is that I am not interested in paying with axes, no matter how well designed or beautiful they might be Patrick...I am thinking I am going with the maille, a round shield, a sword, a spear, a seax, and the period appropriate garb. That should give me a good foundation and perhaps some ideas as to how much I want to narrow in on a specific region in England or on a specific date.

Now I just have to talk the wife into letting me shell out the money for a quality sword...I am debating the advisability of buying a slightly less expensive sword for wear and a rebated sword for sparring and combat drills. Of course, I want one of the Albion blades...they look damn nice and the reviews are glowing. I suppose I will just have to stick with the swords I have now and concentrate on a shield and the armor. So, where can I get a decent wedge rivetted hauberk for under $500?

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Patrick Kelly

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Posts: 5,739 Location: Wichita, Kansas

Sat 03 Mar, 2007 11:14 am

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One thing I know for sure is that I am not interested in paying with axes, no matter how well designed or beautiful they might be Patrick

What and you call yourself a Saxon? Fah! :D

Wedge rivets weren't used in the 11th century so that isn't a neccesary requirement. However, none of the commercially available mail is going to be absolutely right as-is, so I'd say rivet type should be low on the priority list. My own hauberk has a mixture of wedge and round riveted rings as well as punched rings.

Wholesale Armor is where I bought the shirt I used as the basis for my kit, currently priced at $325.00 This one required a lot of work to get it where it is, but any of them will need some modification.
http://www.wholesalearmor.com/flatrivethauberk.html

Find-It Armory has a very interesting shirt made from alternating rows of punched and round riveted rings that has a lot of potential, available for pre-order at $425.00 They cal it a roman hamata but it could do well for your use.
http://finditarmory.com/
(this one also has a larger than average chest measurement of 50 inces, whereas most of them are a bit small for we full-grown types)

Historic Enterprises has wedge riveted mail but it's a bit more than you want to spend.
http://www.historicenterprises.com/cart.php?m...t&c=25

Von Sussen has a variety of products at varying prices.
http://sussen.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/index.html

We can't talk about mail without mentioning the current Jedi Master of the craft, Erik Schmid. His work is far, far more expensive than your stated price ceiling, but it is the only truly accurate stuff out there that I know of. Definitely a mail lovers dream catch. Erik's also very willing to answer any questions you may have if you decide to tackle making mail on your own.
http://webpages.charter.net/erikdschmid/

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