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Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Arms and armor from Musée du Louvre in Paris Reply to topic
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Manouchehr M.




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PostPosted: Mon 19 Mar, 2007 11:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Russ Ellis wrote:
Manouchehr M. wrote:

Russ

I will find out this information for you as I will travel to Louvre for a research project soon.

Thanks for your kind email. In my book I followed the same principle, each sword needs to be phtographed from as many angels as possible (there I could take the piecs out of their glass vitrine and inspect them closely and take pics). Very often swords are only phtographed from one or two angles leaving out lots of information.

Kind regards

Manouchehr Moshtagh Khorasani


Excellent thanks so much! These have been some VERY fascinating photos! You are very generous to take the time to share all of them.


Russ
Anytime my friend. You are very welcome. Last time when I was in Paris, it was my birthday ! And I ended up taking pictures in Luvre and Musée du Armée the whole day.

Kind regards

Manocuhehr

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Manouchehr M.




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PostPosted: Thu 22 Mar, 2007 1:34 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Cinqueda, Italy around 1500

The relief workof the scabbard reminds me of Persian shamshir scabbards Happy .

A beautiful work.

Kind regards

Manouchehr Moshtag Khorasani



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Russ Ellis




PostPosted: Thu 22 Mar, 2007 2:16 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Manouchehr M. wrote:
Cinqueda, Italy around 1500

The relief workof the scabbard reminds me of Persian shamshir scabbards Happy .

A beautiful work.

Kind regards

Manouchehr Moshtag Khorasani


That is very impressive! Seeing something that intricate reminds me once again that whoever thinks old = crude definitely needs to get knocked in the noggin, yet every day on ebay the unscrupulous sell thousands of "old" crude items with the idea that in "ye olden days" people did not know how to do quality work.

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Jean Thibodeau




PostPosted: Thu 22 Mar, 2007 9:59 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Manouchehr: Thanks again for the pics I really love cinquedeas. Cool

I might get the cheap(er) Windlass antique one at Kult of Athena soon but might just consider a custom version as some point.

Although I always sort of wonder about the size of the tangs considering how narrow some of the handles are compared
to width of blades ?

I wonder if this cinquedea is the same one as in the Paul Martin book page 171 figure 129
( Armes et Armures de Charlemagne à Louis XIV )

If it's not the same one it really looks like it may have come from the same maker ? ( Or there was one really popular pattern out there. Wink )

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Manouchehr M.




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PostPosted: Thu 22 Mar, 2007 10:05 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Russ Ellis wrote:
Manouchehr M. wrote:
Cinqueda, Italy around 1500

The relief workof the scabbard reminds me of Persian shamshir scabbards Happy .

A beautiful work.

Kind regards

Manouchehr Moshtag Khorasani


That is very impressive! Seeing something that intricate reminds me once again that whoever thinks old = crude definitely needs to get knocked in the noggin, yet every day on ebay the unscrupulous sell thousands of "old" crude items with the idea that in "ye olden days" people did not know how to do quality work.


Russ

In the old days they made magnificent work. We just need to take a look at the three coronation swords to find out how magnificent they are:

1) Reichsschwert
2) Zeremonienschwert
3) Joyeuse or sword of Charlemagne

Kind regards

Manouchehr

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Manouchehr M.




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PostPosted: Thu 22 Mar, 2007 10:07 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jean Thibodeau wrote:
Manouchehr: Thanks again for the pics I really love cinquedeas. Cool

I might get the cheap(er) Windlass antique one at Kult of Athena soon but might just consider a custom version as some point.

Although I always sort of wonder about the size of the tangs considering how narrow some of the handles are compared
to width of blades ?

I wonder if this cinquedea is the same one as in the Paul Martin book page 171 figure 129
( Armes et Armures de Charlemagne à Louis XIV )

If it's not the same one it really looks like it may have come from the same maker ? ( Or there was one really popular pattern out there. Wink )


Thank you for your input Jean. I also love them. They are truly beautiful. I do not have that book. Where can I buy a copy?

Kind regards

Manouchehr

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Gordon Frye




PostPosted: Thu 22 Mar, 2007 10:17 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Manouchehr;

VERY nice to see a sheath for a Cinqueda! Something that I have never seen, actually. Lots of suppositions, but no actual artifacts, so thank you for posting that. Now to tell a friend who wants to actually make a PROPER sheath for his! Big Grin

Thank you!

Cheers!

Gordon

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Manouchehr M.




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PostPosted: Thu 22 Mar, 2007 10:21 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Gordon Frye wrote:
Manouchehr;

VERY nice to see a sheath for a Cinqueda! Something that I have never seen, actually. Lots of suppositions, but no actual artifacts, so thank you for posting that. Now to tell a friend who wants to actually make a PROPER sheath for his! Big Grin

Thank you!

Cheers!

Gordon


Gordon

Very welcome. I posted another cinqueda with the sheath in the thread on Musée d'l armée. Have you seen that?

Kind regards

Manouchehr

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Jean Thibodeau




PostPosted: Thu 22 Mar, 2007 10:32 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Manouchehr M. wrote:
Jean Thibodeau wrote:
Manouchehr: Thanks again for the pics I really love cinquedeas. Cool

I might get the cheap(er) Windlass antique one at Kult of Athena soon but might just consider a custom version as some point.

Although I always sort of wonder about the size of the tangs considering how narrow some of the handles are compared
to width of blades ?

I wonder if this cinquedea is the same one as in the Paul Martin book page 171 figure 129
( Armes et Armures de Charlemagne à Louis XIV )

If it's not the same one it really looks like it may have come from the same maker ? ( Or there was one really popular pattern out there. Wink )


Thank you for your input Jean. I also love them. They are truly beautiful. I do not have that book. Where can I buy a copy?

Kind regards

Manouchehr


Not sure if it is an easy book to find and if it is still in print ? Originally printed by Office du Livre, Fribourg © 1967
I think there is an English version of the book also in existence.

Very much worth it if you can find one. I bought mine some time soon after it's first printing and there are great drawings of armour copied from tomb funerary sculptures that may no longer physically exist ( Damaged in war or by pollution ).

Oh, from what you have shown of other cinquedea there does seem to be at least one very popular style and many that look very close to each other ( Enough so that at a glance they would be hard to tell apart ! )

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Manouchehr M.




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PostPosted: Sat 24 Mar, 2007 2:08 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jean Thibodeau wrote:
Manouchehr M. wrote:
Jean Thibodeau wrote:
Manouchehr: Thanks again for the pics I really love cinquedeas. Cool

I might get the cheap(er) Windlass antique one at Kult of Athena soon but might just consider a custom version as some point.

Although I always sort of wonder about the size of the tangs considering how narrow some of the handles are compared
to width of blades ?

I wonder if this cinquedea is the same one as in the Paul Martin book page 171 figure 129
( Armes et Armures de Charlemagne à Louis XIV )

If it's not the same one it really looks like it may have come from the same maker ? ( Or there was one really popular pattern out there. Wink )


Thank you for your input Jean. I also love them. They are truly beautiful. I do not have that book. Where can I buy a copy?

Kind regards

Manouchehr


Not sure if it is an easy book to find and if it is still in print ? Originally printed by Office du Livre, Fribourg © 1967
I think there is an English version of the book also in existence.

Very much worth it if you can find one. I bought mine some time soon after it's first printing and there are great drawings of armour copied from tomb funerary sculptures that may no longer physically exist ( Damaged in war or by pollution ).

Oh, from what you have shown of other cinquedea there does seem to be at least one very popular style and many that look very close to each other ( Enough so that at a glance they would be hard to tell apart ! )


Jean,

Can I get the book in its original version somewhere?

Kind regards

Manouchehr

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Manouchehr M.




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PostPosted: Sat 24 Mar, 2007 2:15 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dear friends,

The next swords are magnifiecnt and with very important inscriptions. Unfortunately the rookm was very dark and above all the glass was very thick.

The unmounted sword from Iran reads (in Kufic):

Sword with the name Mu'tamad al-Dawla, Iran IX century

"This has been ordered to forge by the king Mu'tamad al-Dawla, the incomparable in his time, the unique in his century, the support of the law of Sultans, the sun of justice, Abu'l Isha Ibn Hibat Allah le . . . "



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Manouchehr M.




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PostPosted: Sat 24 Mar, 2007 12:01 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dear friends,

Look at this magnificent buckler,

Northern Italy (Milan?) second half of the 16th century,

Kind regards

Manouchehr



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Russ Ellis




PostPosted: Sat 24 Mar, 2007 9:28 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I've seen highly ornate parade shields before certainly, but I think this one may be the first two color one. I can't imagine the amount of work that had to go into making those things...
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Manouchehr M.




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PostPosted: Sat 31 Mar, 2007 12:42 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Russ

Yes that is a beautiful shield.

Now look at this one. Breathtaking beauty.

Kind regards

Manouchehr Moshtagh Khorasani



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Manouchehr M.




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PostPosted: Tue 03 Apr, 2007 10:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dear friends,

Let us continue our virtual tour in Louvre.

Kind regards

Manouchehr



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Manouchehr M.




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PostPosted: Sat 07 Apr, 2007 1:36 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Curirass second half of the 16th century

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Manouchehr



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Steve Grisetti




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PostPosted: Sun 22 Apr, 2007 2:24 pm    Post subject: Cinquedeas from the Louvre         Reply with quote

I was perusing through my pictures archive, and found the attached shots of the cinquedeas that Manouchehr posted earlier in this thread. Since the angles are slightly different, I thought that they might be of interest.


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Jean Thibodeau




PostPosted: Sun 22 Apr, 2007 7:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Cinquedeas from the Louvre         Reply with quote

Steve Grisetti wrote:
I was perusing through my pictures archive, and found the attached shots of the cinquedeas that Manouchehr posted earlier in this thread. Since the angles are slightly different, I thought that they might be of interest.


Great pics and I love the aesthetics of cinquedea(s) but I can't help obsessing about how narrow the tangs look at the guard. Eek!

How are these built ? A narrow tang or something closer to a full tang: Admittedly very narrow close to the guard.

I would guess tang thickness could compensate for some narrowness ?

I've never read any detailed explanations on how cinquedea handles are put together: Most museum or book descriptions of arms usually favour an art history approach and rarely the practical design approach i.e. the why and how things were put together and using " martial art " aspects.

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Dan Dickinson




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PostPosted: Sun 22 Apr, 2007 9:40 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chad Arnow wrote:
Charlemagne is an ancestor of mine (no genuflecting required Happy ), so it's great to see more pics of this sword. It's one of the more recognizable ones out there.

Funny enough, I'm a descendant as well, so I guess we're related at some point. Which son are you descended from? I believe I am descended through Louis and then Lothaire.
Anyway, to get back on topic, nice shots of his sword, that glass case frustrated me to no end in trying to get shots of it while I was there, nice job and thanks!

Dan
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Fabrice Cognot




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PostPosted: Mon 23 Apr, 2007 5:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dan Dickinson wrote:
Chad Arnow wrote:
Charlemagne is an ancestor of mine (no genuflecting required Happy ), so it's great to see more pics of this sword. It's one of the more recognizable ones out there.

Funny enough, I'm a descendant as well, so I guess we're related at some point. Which son are you descended from? I believe I am descended through Louis and then Lothaire.



Funny how Charlemagne seems to have a lot more descendants outside France/Germany than inside Wink

Back to topic :

Jean : I've not ben able so far to document closely (holding it in my hands) a cinquedea - but I spent some time gazing through the glass.

Cinquedeas grips and hilts ar a complicated matter. At first, you'd think they're of scale tang type, but a closer look reveals they're whittle-tanged, sort of. The tang goes all the way through, to the end cap (can't call it a pommel), the latter being often screwed on. The rivets are mainly - and extremely - decorative, of complicated 'mosaic' type. The scales are made broader than the tang, so there is a kind of space between them, in whch is placed, but slightly recessed, a brass/golden metal band inscribed (engraved or etched) with a motto or something similar. You're right in guessing that the tang is pretty thick, actually.

Cross guards are far from simple too.


Anyway, I'll try to dig out a pic or two of these 'deas, and post it here or start a new thread. Remind me of that in, say, 2 weeks (PM me), as I'll certainly be too busy until then.

Cheers

Fab

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