[GG Osborne]

Sometime ago we had a nice roundtable discussion about the various types and versions of Scottish targes. Mac and others supplied some very nice photos from their collections of originals and some were just plain gorgous! One of these is the so-called Gwynn targe. Well, not being able to resist, I wrote my friend, Joe Lindsey in Inverness, the Targemaker, and asked about the possibility of a reproduction. Well, Joe has outdone himself. Although I haven't received the package yet, I wanted to share a picture Joe emailed today of the finished product. I do not post this for your congradulations on a fine specimin, but to applaude Joe Lindsey who is truly a craftsman and an artist. Another fantastiv job, my friend! George Osborne

[Merv Cannon]

Hi George......Thats a truly magnificent Targaid !! Certinally one of the best and creative designs too. Yes. Joe has done a great job.....a true craftsman. Correct me if I'm wrong.........the little bits of 'Red' are pieces of fabric, yes ? Velvet or Linen I presume ? Also...do you know the weight yet ?
BTW, do you have any other Targes in your collection ?

Cheers & thanks for sharing !

[Lin Robinson]

George...

Don't you go doing any sword fighting with that beautiful targe!!!!

[Thomas McDonald]

Really outstanding work, Joe ....
You have truly captured the beauty of the original and we applaud your most excellent craftsmanship in recreating what looks to be one very difficult piece to do !

Your a lucky soul, George, to have this one in your collection !
I look forward to seeing more detailed pics of this one when you have 'er in hand !

The following are a few snaps of the original that I took at the Museum of Scotland, Edinburgh, in Oct of '05.

A toast to all you fine craftsmen/artists out there that dedicate themselves to excellence in their field(s) of choice !

Slàinte & Cheers, Mac

[Greg Griggs]

Absolutely astounding work, Joe. George, ye're a lucky man with that addition. A good targaid is the one thing missing from my collection. Going to have to remedy that someday.:} Congrats on a beautiful piece gentlemen. Oh and Mac - thanks for the added pics. I saw the targes in Edinburgh this past summer, and they are too nice not to gawk at, again and again and......

[GG Osborne]

On behalf of Joe, thanks for all of the complements, fellows. And thanks again MAC for adding the pictures of the original. In response to several questions, I think it is a safe bet that blade shall never touch targe and that this beautiful piece will find an honored place on the wall with a couple of baskethilts behind it! I do have two other examples of Joe's work, a Graham pattern and one that I commissioned for Lochiel of Cameron (no musket balls holes in mine, hoever.) I believe Joe has addred the latter to his line. It is a rather "work-a-day" pattern but I love the embossed "Fear God> Honour The King" legend surrounding the central boss. I think that sentiment certainly sums up - in my mind at least - some of the thinking characteristic of the non-juror mindset of that period and the more conservative Tory worldview prevelant before the Glorious Revolution. Mostly romantic, but stirring none the less. Someone ought to do a mongraph on the memorialized Jacobite era weapons with their "rhyming blades" and politial sentiments. It would be interesting. My personal favorite, beside the above is " Thy King and Countrys Cause Defent Thought On The Spot Your Life Should End." A more humerous one - and defititly non-polital - from the 17th century is "Ask not for shame [to borrow me}. My Meister Wil Deny Thee. Drink Les and Buy Ane!." Anyone one else have a favorite?

[Thomas McDonald]

I photographed a dirk at Culloden that's pierced blade had that interesting slogan -
With this good steele thy cause I will maintain ... And for thy sake O James will breathe each vien
(there is also a baskethilt at the MOS that has the same slogan except reads "sword" instead of "steele")

Another dirk in the MOS Reserve had on its spine -
Fear God And Do Not Kil 1680

Mac

[Henrik Bjoern Boegh]

By God..!
Amazing...

Cheers,
Henrik

[Eoin Gunn]

Gentlemen

I use to visit this fantastic site frequently and decided to join myArmoury as my main interest relies on Scottish weapons
of old and ancient weapons in general.

I have a couple of friends performing an excellent re enactment . They told me about this post on the targe Gwynn . Like them; I do not subscribe to all these very respectable commendations.

Showing all my respect to Mr. Joe Lindsay .

Mr. Merv Cannon : About your very personal and respectable meditations of a “ true craftsman”; yes, I think I can make a little correction .

Craft : occupation , esp. one in which skill in the use of the hands –( not machines )- is needed.

I live in Scotland and have seen several ´authentic ‘ Scottish targes ; including the targe Gwynn and they all actually look like “hand made” craftsmanship which is not the case of Mr. Lindsay ´s reproductions.

I find that a great number of customers / forum members ( not here in Scotland) fall in love with fantasy jobs and would agree your thoughts in case you tell me Joe Lindsay ´s targes are just an impressive “tapestry work” which shows an impressive “ repoussé “ job made by some machine and several moulds.

A great tapestry work ? Yes. A great craftsmanship ? I don ´t think so.

Under the eye of the tourists, there are no differences between a “souvenir” dirk from one of the twenty stores along the Royal Mile and one made by Mr. Vince Evans.

I follow the “authentic craftsmanship” and enjoy having some beautiful ¨master pieces¨ in my collection made by “ true craftsmen” like Mr. Vince Evans. I also have two targes made by Mr. Patrick Mc Laine ; a superb craftsman who posted pictures of some of his targes in this site long ago.
The face / front of one my targes is made of heavy leather and is entirely hand tooled like in the actual targe which is featured in one article from the Society of Antiquaries of Scotland. The rear of this targe has cow skin stuffed with straw, and two ´arches´ of iron for an adjustable arm loop. The grip is made of heavy iron and leather. My next target : a pair of Doune pistols based on two originals from 1715.

By the way; my grandfather was a great craftsman , I still remember his ruined hands and all that sweat booting his red face while tooling a lot of pieces of leather or carving oak…only the upper class people could afford his chairs and table stuff !

Forgive the long speech.

Anyway, tastes are tastes.

[GG Osborne]

Perhaps as one of the great unwashed plebes populating America, I just have a less exhaulted concept of authenticity. I learned many years ago that authenticity is a relative term, as is, I might surmise, "crattsmanship." I am reminded of the Civil War types over here who insist on handloomed wool and actually starve themselves to get that gaunt, hollow look very common in emaciaqted soldiers of that period. When is authentic authentic enough. To logically extend your thoughts as nice as Mr. McLaine's products may be, not every targe was stuffed with straw, fixed with iron pins, and backed with cowhide. I am also sure that any time saving means that made since were used. As we all know, Vince Evans skill is hardly equalled, but he certainly doesn't use absolutely authentic 18th centucy methods in his work either. When would enough be enough? Dig the iron in Scotland, send it to Germany to be smelted and forged into steel, set-up shop in Sterling and make-up a basket? Even then that wouldn't be enough. No, authenticity and craftsmanship is a relative term and I am satidfied myself that Joe's work, while admittedly commercial, is certainly authentic enough for my obviously jaded standards and represents something nof obvious beauty and value. While your late grandfather's gnarled hands must have been an inspiration, I'll bet if he had had some power tools around the shop, he would have used one now and then.

Thanks to all who also appreciate Joe's superb work and attitude to us lowly uncognocenti.

[Chad Arnow]

Eoin,
Thank you for your first post. I should point out that it is somewhat unkind to basically trash someone's new acquisition in this way. You're entitled to your opinion, as we all are, but there are better ways to share it than this. George is a proud new owner of a nice product. If you want to discuss standards of craftsmanship, please feel free to post that in the Off-topic forum.

[Chad Arnow]

[GG Osborne]

Chad, my friend, that message was not framed as scarcasm. Perhaps a little too liberal in the use of irony, but not sarcastic. Sorry if it was perceived in that manner. Far from it. I was just trying to make a point regarding standards of authenticity and how it relates to craftsmanship. Both, I believe are relative terms based on an arbitrary scale of what can be achieved. Obviously some craftsmen are more talented than others. This is true throughout history. Was Walter Allan a greater craftsman than John Simpson? Is Vince a better craftsman than ElJay Erikson? Is Mr. McLaine a better targemaker than Joe Lindsey? Who is to say and in my humble opinion the arguement is flawed from the beginning. They are all craftsmen in their own right, each trying to achieve something noteworthy and appreciated my those with varying taste and appetites. I will grant that there is a plateau where "authenticity" and "craftsmenship" becomes glaringly apparent as opposed to lesser works, but I think of it in the same manner as the classical definition of pornography, "I can't define it, but I know it when I see it!" Thanks for your correction, Chad, but please all my Forum friends, if I was perceived as sarcastic, it was unintentional. Mea culpa. Mea maxima culpa. George

[Ed McV]

I am sure most people are aware that the Gwynn targe has a companion targe the Dunimarle targe (which is almost identical). It is on display at Duff House,Banff (this house is open to the public). The targe has been described by A.V.B. Norman, "A Highland Target (Targaid) of about 1715 at Duff House, Banffshire in an article in "The Arms & Armour Society, Mar 1998. An interesting comment by Norman " However in recent years targets seem to have attracted counterfeiters". Of further interest in the Dunimarle targe is that there is an underlying other design.

[Lin Robinson]

[Thomas McDonald]

There will always be an incredible difference between the work of craftsman who spend hours & hours on a piece, building them with as much original contruction technique as possible, and making each as good as ones skill allows !

Yes, Patrick Maclaine's work, James Taylor's work, is incredible ..... but, as good as they are, I can't envision them being able to produce enough targaid to keep the world happy !

There is a tradeoff in business, time & money, supply & demand, knowing your customer base and the price they are willing to pay !

Mr. Joe Lindsay has a great business from what I can see, and does pretty darn good interpertations of historical targes that are more than good enough quality for many of us ! (we certainly are not using them to save our life with)
"Tapestries" as Eoin said, or not, they fill the need, well, and pointing out their obvious difference, comparing them to pieces that take hours of tedious handwork, is kinda unfair in my mind!

Whatever machines Joe utilizes to stamp out his product makes perfectly good sense if your business is to sell targaid in volume ..... I'm pretty sure Patrick & James only do limited commissions anyway, as that , (a.) is not their real job, and (b.) the market nitch they wish to work in.

Whatever craftsmanship Joe uses in regard to his hands, or machines, is impressive, so I think we should leave it at that.

Congrats again, George, on a very nice targe !

[Eoin Gunn]

Dear Mr. Osborne :
I would like you to accept my true and sincere apologies about the commentaries I made on your targe Gwynn.
It is not difficult to detect you are true gentleman. I would like to share a funny anecdote with you. It has to do with your respectable meditations about my grandfather ´s preferences.
When I was a teenager I used to spend several hours at my grandfather ´s workshop . I keep in mind one image of that great man … he was hand polishing a large oval table and I went something like “why don ´t you try to do this job with a bottle of lacquer and a brush instead of all this annoying stuff?” … look lad… this is a fine work , an expensive table, like a good violin…yer bottles of lacquer and brushes will be useful in case I decide to change the face of our garden …that benches look terrible! .
I did not mean to be offensive and hope you can accept my apologies in case my comments appeared to be sarcastic. My true intention was to forward some reply to Mr. Merv Cannon’s meditations about true craftsmanship. That ´s all .
Mr. Osborne; no matter the methods used … Mr. Joe Lindsay has made a very respectable reproduction of this targe and I sincerely wish you can add more of his reproductions to you collection.
May I share your thoughts Mr. Mc Donald ? , I join your toast to all the fine craftsmen / artists that dedicate themselves to excellence in their field /s of choice !. Thanks for sharing these fantastic pictures of the targe.

Mr. Arnow : I do not understand your offensive commentaries about my first post. I thought I was free to post any personal opinion . I only enjoy being a wee bit sarcastic while sharing some pints with my friends at our local pub.

[Lin Robinson]

Eoin...

Where in Scotland do you live. Have you met the commander of you Clan, Iain Gunn of Banniskirk, who lives at Swiney House by Lybster?

[GG Osborne]

Thank you, Eoin and I assure you no apologies are needed or anticipated. If there is one thing that keeps this Forum lively, it is opinion and the company of like minded folk. Frankly, I admit to being envious of your targe sources in "the auld country" and would like to know more about them. I have struck up a bit of a friendship with Joe and he has joined in our discussion here about targes from time to time. As Mac said, I don't anticipate being set upon by a hord of bloody Campbells or English any time soon (that was a joke for all you Campbells out there!) so I don't think the targe will have to stand up to more abuse than hanging on a peg! Seriously, Eoin, I would like to know more about the targemakers you referenced and wonder if they have websites or if pictures of their work is available? Again, thanks for your comments!

[Henrik Bjoern Boegh]

George,
You'll only have to send a PM to Pat Maclaine here at the forum to get in touch with him. We've both discussed targes with him in previous threads. As all the other people here; a good honest Gentleman with a serious interest in both weaponry and history, who are very keen on sharing what he knows!

James Taylor is one of the cheerful lads over at the Scottish and Border Fourm at SFI. I've seen pictures of his targes, and they look superb! He's also made some lovely dirks. One (or two) of which is(are) in Dale Seago's collection.

Congratulations on that Gwynn targe. Joe Lindsay has made yet another admirable piece of art (that's what I consider them )! I would really love to see your collection one day. Sigh! That bloody pond

Cheers,
Henrik