Posts: 552 Location: San Jose, CA
Mon 05 Oct, 2009 10:52 am
| Vincent Le Chevalier wrote: |
| Bryce Felperin wrote: | | Sorry to say this...but you haven't been around many muscians (I mean that as a joke though since I really don't know if you have or not). ;-) |
Actually your joke is close enough to the truth :) Well I have family members that have done a lot of music but I never quite got into it myself.
So yeah, that's probably an issue with human nature as well... |
Which is a fitting point for this argument. You will get arguments between people no matter what the subject is that they share. Get two people together and they'll argue. However eventually they'll come to either a consensus or agree to disagree. Rarely they'll get into a fight...but that sorts itself out sometimes as well. It's all in the nature of human interaction.
My argument, and I'm sure many would agree, is don't deny yourself the chance to learn or follow your passion because you don't like some parts of the art or the people who are in it. Often you have to experience it fully with all of it's good and bad to get to know whether you like it or not.
I myself tend to be biased against certain martial arts (East and West) but I do recognize one fact...if the other person is passionate about it, then it is a good thing for them and the art in general. Just because they're hard headed about their art doesn't mean everyone who does it is. If you study it, you might find something that is useful to you in it.
For example, so what if Tai Chi is more about exercise than martial arts as it's taught in the west...for someone who does it passionately it doesn't matter. They'll learn some important balance and movement exercises that may very well be useful in a martial sense or for another martial art. I actually took a few classes and did get something out of it by doing so.
I also got one bit of good advice long ago from another instructor of mine when I was taking a class and starting to not like the instruction or the art being taught. He said to just try it out, and if you don't like it, stop. However don't close your mind to it and try to see if you can pick up something out of the instruction you could keep for yourself and use for your art/style.
In fact if you talk to most instructors, who are rational, they'll tell you that at some point they use a lot of techniques, ideas and practices they may have learned outside of their specific art to better themselves. So just because you are studying Fiore or Vadi longsword there is no reason you can't use some German longsword techniques as your style if you think it would help you in a fight. Heck I even find some interesting rapier techniques/moves that even help me a bit in my longsword (expecially when correctly judging distance).
So go ahead and try it out, study that other art, find something useful and adapt it as your own. Any knowledge gained is never wasted. If you don't like the "my art is better than your art" discussion, don't participate. It is no where listed that you have to be a part of arguments just to learn an art. Be it pottery, music, science or martial arts it's all knowledge.
Posts: 462 Location: Northern VA
Mon 05 Oct, 2009 1:13 pm
All of this strikes me as being pretty standard fare for any large group of people that are passionate about a specific subject. You'll always have a few bad eggs, a vocal minority, and personality conflicts.
But I highly recommend attending an event such as WMAW, where I've been impressed by the conduct of everyone involved. Perhaps everyone is on their best behavior at such an event, but I saw very little in the way of egos, but rather, when presented with an alternate way of doing something, I generally saw reactions along the lines of "I like that, I'm going to use it." My impression is that everyone, both instructors and students alike, were there to learn something new and to have a blast doing so.
I think being a forum moderator exposes you to a lot more bickering than you'd experience otherwise.
Posts: 101 Location: Central New Jersey
Mon 05 Oct, 2009 1:33 pm
| Chad Arnow wrote: |
Michael,
Some interesting points as always. One beef with the inflammatory online HEMA discussions is the refusal of some parties to let something go when it's obvious that 1) they've stated their position clearly and fully already and when 2) the other side is clearly not being convinced.
Because those people can't leave it at that, the comments get not only repetitive but louder and posters begin to make their comments personal.
Yes, forums promote an opportunity for every voice to be heard. Correct the incorrect statements to the best of your ability and knowledge. I always want people to defend their position, but at some point it becomes obvious that the standpoint will not be resolved. My preference at that point would be for people to recognize the situation, say "We agree to disagree" and then move on, as I said in my initial post. That rarely happens.
There is a need for some of these people to say they're right and others are therefore wrong, and a need to have the last word. So the pointless discussion continues and casts a bad light and turns people off.
Those situations do not serve to protect or preserve the art people have devoted years to the study of; they actively harm the art. |
Chad,
Have you ever been to a town council meeting or a town planning board meeting or have you ever served on a committee or some type of community board of trustees? If you have you should recognize where I’m going with this. The type of person you described exists everywhere and the issues that he/she /it demand recognition on or for cover the entire cross section of societal interaction. This forum is no exception, you are always going to have those individuals that cannot, to be frank, “shut up and move on”. It just isn’t in their nature and being obnoxious is something that they do without even realizing it. Many people have difficulty with change or cannot look at issues objectively no matter how trivial those issues are. They react combatively when their point of view or way of doing things is challenged because they see it as a threat rather than an exchange of ideas. I’m in no way trying to apologize for these types of people because I know from personal experience they can be very difficult to deal with and their behavior in many cases is unacceptable. But I guess what I’m trying to say is that complaining about these types of people is to be complaining about social or professional interaction in general.
Unfortunately open forums and the internet in general bring these types of people out in droves. I think there is a distinct difference between those that are actually the obnoxious type “A” personalities we meet in real life and those that manifest themselves on the net. With internet forums, a lot of the acrimony fostered by many of these people is fueled by the perception of anonymity or unreality that the net provides and most of the time it doesn’t manifest itself in real life. A similar phenomenon can be seen when you take what would appear to be a perfectly normal and rational individual and put them behind the wheel of a car. That normal rational person can become an inconsiderate bastard at the drop of a hat because within his or her car they feel insulated and invulnerable to the outside world.
In closing let me just say that after observing some of the recent developments here, I understand your apprehension with this issue and understand your distaste in dealing with these individuals but allowing them to stop you from discovering what could turn out to be an enjoyable passion is foolish and mostly likely unwarranted. I think my experience with WMA is pretty typical in that most students I’ve come across are only interested in learning and the personal growth that the earned knowledge and practice can bring.
Posts: 5,739 Location: Wichita, Kansas
Mon 05 Oct, 2009 1:57 pm
Just to try and get something productive out of this ever revolving circle of acrimony, does anyone know of any HEMA groups in the Wichita, KS area? Topeka or Manhattan are too far away but I wouldn't mind finding a bunch of opinionated fechtfighters close to home.
Posts: 17 Location: West Carrollton, OH
Mon 05 Oct, 2009 2:05 pm
Going along with what Patrick asks, I'd like to add my own inquiry regarding local HEMA groups. Anybody know of anything in the Dayton/Cincinnati area?
Posts: 247
Mon 05 Oct, 2009 2:56 pm
I know guys in Youngstown, Ohio; Ft. Myers, FL and Baton Rouge, LA looking for groups.
Posts: 649 Location: Italy
Mon 05 Oct, 2009 3:54 pm
| Chad Arnow wrote: |
Ken,
I appreciate the sentiment, but I think that's wildly overestimating my importance in the sword world (I don't see myself as an important cog in the wheel of any of this--at all). :) |
Chad
You are in error. :eek:
If Ben overestimate your importance, (this, only you say) you underestimating your importance in the sword world.
Here, you are very appreciated. :)
Only a thing, each must be free to choose, if others use our choices for different purposes, it is just their problem. :cool:
Ciao
Maurizio
Posts: 8,310 Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
Mon 05 Oct, 2009 4:33 pm
Chad: I think that if you are curious about how fighting with the longsword feels like, if you have any talent with it or not ? A bit of hands on experience is worth while in better understanding the way swords were used and designed.
The physical activity is great exercise for both mind and body.
If you can find a group in your area that has a good " vibe " for you without the " drama " you want to avoid then maybe you should try it out ? At least don't stop yourself from trying it out because of these side issues if it's something you would really like to try.
Chad, I completely respect your choice, whatever it may turn out to be, to participate or not in longsword training: I'm just giving you arguments for trying it out. ( As other have said very well in a few of the previous post: You can do the activity and not have to get involved in any of the politics or drama ! Obviously, here as a moderator you still have to herd the cats or watch the train wrecks, or rather stop Topics from becoming train wrecks. ;) :D :cool: ).
Posts: 845
Mon 05 Oct, 2009 5:09 pm
I understand where Chad is coming from in many ways. I had a HUGE problem finding a group of people to train with. It's something that I always struggled with. I am in a WMA organization currently, but it took me a long time to find something I liked. My biggest problem was the whole superiority complex that many organizational leaders had. Hell, I am a real combat veteran and I've been in law enforcement since 1991 - for what reason would I bow to self-titled royalty or submit to someone because they had a self-published book out calling themselves an expert? A WMA organization needed to prove itself to be worthy of my time and expense, not vice-versa. I was already skilled in various combat arts, just not swordsmanship.
As I said, it took a long time, but I found something that suited my very specialized taste. I think that Chad would find something eventually himself. As for the organizations with bad attitudes and drama? Screw 'em, the WMA community would be better off without them anyway. :)
Posts: 409 Location: Anchorage, Alaska
Mon 05 Oct, 2009 5:34 pm
| Patrick Kelly wrote: |
| Just to try and get something productive out of this ever revolving circle of acrimony, does anyone know of any HEMA groups in the Wichita, KS area? Topeka or Manhattan are too far away but I wouldn't mind finding a bunch of opinionated fechtfighters close to home. |
Hello Patrick,
The closest I know of is the Great Plains Fechtschule located out of Topeka.
Jessica Finley is an instructor of the highest caliber. She's very well versed in the German Tradition and has a very strong unarmed background . Her Ott wrestling class at WMAW was very well received.
I will point out she & I are both instructors in the Selohaar Fechtschule system of Christian Tobler ,so take that as you will.
Cheers,
David
Posts: 583
Mon 05 Oct, 2009 6:58 pm
| Randall Pleasant wrote: |
| P. Cha wrote: | | I´m quite happy that the vast majority of the WMA people stay away from such childishness to ¨prove¨ things...although I have to say I do sadly see a lot of this from the ARMA crowd. |
ARMA is not out to "prove things". ARMA's primary goal is to recreate the lost historical European martial arts. ARMA is not a social club. With some exceptions we do not hang out togeather, bar hop togeather, visit, etc. Ernie Perez and I have run the DFW study group since 2001 and the only time I can recall that he was at my house was when he help me move in and he did that and more for Brian Price (Chivalry Bookshelf, Schola Saint George) when he move in down the road from me. The only thing ARMA members do as an organization is recreate the lost historical European martial arts. ARMA has never and will never let go of its primary goal in order to have a group hug with other groups. ARMA members are very friendly people but we don't do historical European martial arts for friendship.
Ran Pleasant
ARMA DFW |
Like I said, it's not something the leadership does. However go visit some other forums or blogs and you will see quite a few ARMA folks who basically go I'm right and I'll prove it...lets fight. In fact the last time I interacted with ARMA I was in fact told, your wrong, we're right, lets fight to prove it. I took the offer up not to prove anything, but because well, I like a good fight...however the attitude is wrong. The ARMA leadership I KNOW doesn't act this way...but you guys don't also publicly say that this is a bad thing either. It's not a matter of your primary goal, it's a matter of being good neighbors. You can still do what you do and not have to be a jackass about it. If you wanna be left to do your own thing, that's fine too...but when your member are picking fights, then your not gonna be left alone.
Posts: 583
Mon 05 Oct, 2009 7:00 pm
| JE Sarge wrote: |
| A WMA organization needed to prove itself to be worthy of my time and expense, not vice-versa. |
Couldn't agree more.
Posts: 649 Location: Italy
Mon 05 Oct, 2009 7:42 pm
In this part of the world, I do not think that a heated discussion is bad.
If you do not offend anyone, okay. :cool:
For me it shows passion in defending the ideas in which one believes.
It is wrong to defend positions to the bitter end, even when it is realized that mistake.
Then here, take all the good that is being said.
Personally I think you can always shrug ... if someone says nonsense. :p
This happens here, but in any other place. :)
Ciao
Maurizio
Posts: 9,545 Location: Dayton, OH
Mon 05 Oct, 2009 8:06 pm
| Jimmy Reinstatler wrote: |
| Going along with what Patrick asks, I'd like to add my own inquiry regarding local HEMA groups. Anybody know of anything in the Dayton/Cincinnati area? |
I'll second that request out of curiosity.
I admit my interest is piqued, I may just have to find people more in tune (musical pun) with my needs.
Posts: 8,310 Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
Mon 05 Oct, 2009 8:31 pm
| David Teague wrote: |
Jessica Finley is an instructor of the highest caliber. She's very well versed in the German Tradition and has a very strong unarmed background . Her Ott wrestling class at WMAW was very well received.
I will point out she & I are both instructors in the Selohaar Fechtschule system of Christian Tobler ,so take that as you will.
Cheers,
David |
Jessica is a member here but posts infrequently but I have had e-mail and P.M. discussions with her here and on another Forum where she graciously gave me feedback about some of my thoughts resulting from training i.e. philosophical and practical questions about approaches to training or specific training questions: She was very much a pleasure to deal with and knowledgeable.
She also gave me a bit of textile, scratchy wool advice and some repair advice on some of my soft kit. ( Thanks again Jessica if you read this. :D :cool: ).
It probably helps that my group's training philosophy is very similar to her group's. ( A martial art practiced in a safe and respectful way trying to stay close to the original techniques but still open to new or better interpretations. Our group tries to keep competition a low priority as fellow students are training partners and not testosterone poisoned adversaries trying to win at all costs. :D )
Posts: 1,032 Location: New York
Mon 05 Oct, 2009 8:57 pm
| JE Sarge wrote: |
| A WMA organization needed to prove itself to be worthy of my time and expense, not vice-versa. |
I understand where you're coming from, but I disagree with that statement. I would instead say "AND vice versa". Sure, you should choose wisely before devoting time, effort and finances. No one wants to be stuck in a poor quality group. However, the group must also accept you.
In general, considering the scarcity of HEMA groups, you need the group more than the group needs you, and so as much as the group has to prove itself to you to be worth your time, you may have to do the same. Most of us don't make money doing this, and so we have the luxury of teaching only those we want to teach.
In my case, this just means you have to not be an ass. :) Some people are much more strict, but then that's their prerogative...they are the ones with the knowledge and skill, and they can share that with whomever they choose. The groups that I know and interact with generally look for people that will take the art seriously, will try to not only improve their skills but also to better themselves and be a credit not only to their schools but to HEMA in general. I think this is a good thing.
Last edited by Michael Edelson on Mon 05 Oct, 2009 9:00 pm; edited 1 time in total
Posts: 5,739 Location: Wichita, Kansas
Mon 05 Oct, 2009 8:58 pm
Thanks David, I've met Jessica on a couple of occasions and she seemed very nice. Unfortunately Topeka is too far for me.
Posts: 5,739 Location: Wichita, Kansas
Mon 05 Oct, 2009 9:03 pm
| Michael Edelson wrote: |
| JE Sarge wrote: | | A WMA organization needed to prove itself to be worthy of my time and expense, not vice-versa. |
I understand where you're coming from, but I disagree with that statement. I would instead say "AND vice versa". Sure, you should choose wisely before devoting time, effort and finances. No one wants to be stuck in a poor quality group. However, the group must also accept you.
In general, considering the scarcity of HEMA groups, you need the group more than the group needs you, and so as much as the group has to prove itself to you to be worth your time, you may have to do the same. Most of us don't make money doing this, and so we have the luxury of teaching only those we want to teach.
|
And I disagree with you both. A group needs its members as much as the members need the group, the two need each other in order to function. I think your egos are starting to poke through and hasn't there been enough of that already? ;)
Posts: 8,310 Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
Mon 05 Oct, 2009 9:17 pm
| Patrick Kelly wrote: |
And I disagree with you both. A group needs its members as much as the members need the group, the two need each other in order to function. I think your egos are starting to poke through and hasn't there been enough of that already? ;) |
Oh no, poking EGOS with swords ..... there is a really bad joke in there somewhere. :p :D :cool:
A good point in time here to just have a good laugh. ;) :D
Yes it's 42.5% the needs of the member and 57.5% the group's ...... (Depends on how fine one wants to get with the hair splitting ) DOH, just joking.:p :p :p
Seriously: Yeah, I think it does have to be a mutual good fit of expectations and attitudes/personalities.
Posts: 5,739 Location: Wichita, Kansas
Mon 05 Oct, 2009 9:37 pm
| Jean Thibodeau wrote: |
Yes it's 42.5% the needs of the member and 57.5% the group's ...... (Depends on how fine one wants to get with the hair splitting ) DOH, just joking.:p :p :p |
Sweet Fancy Moses, now it's a math problem! :lol:
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