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Ozsváth Árpád-István
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 Posted: Thu 15 Jul, 2010 8:26 pm Post subject: |
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There are some longsword techniques shown at the beginning of the second video, they certainly looks good, but grabbing the blade seems like a bad idea even with gauntlets.
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Christopher H
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| Posted: Thu 15 Jul, 2010 9:21 pm Post subject: |
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Grabbing the blade as a technique is shown throughout the period manuals. It's just a question of doing it at the right opportunity and with the right technique.
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Andrew Maxwell
Location: New Zealand Joined: 03 May 2009
Posts: 90
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| Posted: Thu 15 Jul, 2010 9:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Ozsváth Árpád-István wrote: | | There are some longsword techniques shown at the beginning of the second video, they certainly looks good, but grabbing the blade seems like a bad idea even with gauntlets. |
Grabbing the blade (both your own and your opponent's) with bare hands is shown quite often in the blossfechten sections of the fechtbucher.
ETA: here are a few examples from Talhoffer, there are plenty more.
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Men do not care how nobly they live, but only how long, although it is within the reach of every man to live nobly, but within no man's power to live long. - Lucius Annaeus Seneca
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Jean Henri Chandler
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| Posted: Fri 16 Jul, 2010 7:21 am Post subject: |
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Hamabourg did a demonstration of this with a sharp; they cut a tatami mat, then kind of played tug of war with this sharp blade, (with a bare hand) then did some disarms. All in front of a live crowd.
I'll post it when I have some time to look for it, it's on youtube.
J
Books and games on Medieval Europe Codex Integrum
Codex Guide to the Medieval Baltic Now available in print
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Fri 16 Jul, 2010 7:33 am Post subject: |
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| Jean Henri Chandler wrote: | Hamabourg did a demonstration of this with a sharp; they cut a tatami mat, then kind of played tug of war with this sharp blade, (with a bare hand) then did some disarms. All in front of a live crowd.
I'll post it when I have some time to look for it, it's on youtube.
J |
Perfectly safe as long as one's hand doesn't slip and suffer a slice.
Also grabbing a sharp blade should be done when the blade is immobilized rather than trying to stop a fast moving blade where any error in timing will be very bad.
The problem with people practicing this blade grabbing with wooden wasters or steel blunts is when it's done when it would have resulted in a cut hand with a sharp and much to easy to do when training with unsharp blades.
When training blade grabbing one should do it only in the contexts where it would be safely and efficiently done with a sharp, otherwise it's bad training and makes the technique a crutch to win bouts. ( Hope I'm explaining it clearly enough that it's a good and valid technique but only in the right conditions and context ).
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Carl Massaro
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| Posted: Fri 16 Jul, 2010 7:36 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | There are some longsword techniques shown at the beginning of the second video, they certainly looks good, but grabbing the blade seems like a bad idea even with gauntlets. |
Yeah, blade grabbing tends to be thought as way more dangerous than it realy is. Percussion, and/or a slicing motion is needed to do serious cutting damage. A strong grip on the blade prevents this. The worst that can happen, as long as the grip is strong, is a small cut due to the pressure, but it would likely be superficial, even without gloves.
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Carl Massaro
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| Posted: Fri 16 Jul, 2010 7:41 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I know BS when I see it...what would pretzel a katana like that would similarly damage that type of longsword. So knowing that the last test fas fixed, the credibility of the entire segment is thereby compromised. That's a shame, because the rest wasn't bad. |
Hi, Michael, I don't agree that it would damage the longsword in a similar fashion. I am sure you know this, but katana tend to have soft cores or backs, leading then to bend under harsh stress. European swords, in general, tend to have a different heat treatment and be springier. I believe many can take shock better in that regard. The trade off is a softer edge that may need more sharpening over it's lifetime.
Of course I agree that this test artificially was ridiculous in the sense of why one would try to cut a sword in half, much less cut anything in a stationary, locked potition. We all know swords weren;t meant to be used like that. They would become damaged. It almost reminds me of this careless individual:
http://www.shinkendo.com/kabuto.html
who destroyed an antique kabuto in order to show that his hand-forged katana could cut through it. The test was equally as ridiculous: the helmet was left stationary, on a stump of wood with no give. The sword weilder brought the sword back behind his head like he was about to chop wood, and the result was a cut so shallow that it would barely have cut through the lining into the wearer's skin creating a superficial wound, if any at all. It only demonstrated that the helmet did its job and that the guy weidling the sword had no appreciation for cultural property.
-Carl
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Matthew P. Adams
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| Posted: Fri 16 Jul, 2010 12:07 pm Post subject: |
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Did anyone else notice that the longsword didn't actually cut the other sword? in the slow motion footage you can see the longsword strike the clamped sword, and do some edge damage, but the clamped sword broke an inch or so up from where the strike happened. Yes, it did break the other sword, but it didn't cut it.
If I wanted to go and hit someones sword, I would use a tuck, if I wanted to cut an opponent, then I would use a sword.
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Fri 16 Jul, 2010 12:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Matthew P. Adams wrote: | Did anyone else notice that the longsword didn't actually cut the other sword? in the slow motion footage you can see the longsword strike the clamped sword, and do some edge damage, but the clamped sword broke an inch or so up from where the strike happened. Yes, it did break the other sword, but it didn't cut it.
If I wanted to go and hit someones sword, I would use a tuck, if I wanted to cut an opponent, then I would use a sword. |
Yep, I mentioned that a few posts back. 
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
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Michael Edelson
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| Posted: Fri 16 Jul, 2010 1:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Carl Massaro wrote: |
Hi, Michael, I don't agree that it would damage the longsword in a similar fashion. I am sure you know this, but katana tend to have soft cores or backs, leading then to bend under harsh stress. European swords, in general, tend to have a different heat treatment and be springier. I believe many can take shock better in that regard. The trade off is a softer edge that may need more sharpening over it's lifetime. |
Hi Carl,
I've bent plenty of both kinds of swords. They bend in different ways, but they both bend, and what it takes to bend one is not far off from what it takes to bend the other (allowing for different types, thicknesses, etc.). Now judging by its performance against the mats, the long sword used (unless there was another switcharoo) was of the good cutting variety, so unless they did switch it out, that sword would have torqued and twisted like crazy under the same conditions that would have pretzeled a decent katana.
My BS-o-meter is my own, and I don't expect anyone to take my word for it, but there's enough in that vid that I think anyone without a similar agenda should at least be skeptical.
New York Historical Fencing Association
www.newyorklongsword.com
Byakkokan Dojo
http://newyorkbattodo.com/
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Fri 16 Jul, 2010 1:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Michael Edelson wrote: | Hi Carl,
I've bent plenty of both kinds of swords. They bend in different ways, but they both bend, and what it takes to bend one is not far off from what it takes to bend the other (allowing for different types, thicknesses, etc.). Now judging by its performance against the mats, the long sword used (unless there was another switcharoo) was of the good cutting variety, so unless they did switch it out, that sword would have torqued and twisted like crazy under the same conditions that would have pretzeled a decent katana.
My BS-o-meter is my own, and I don't expect anyone to take my word for it, but there's enough in that vid that I think anyone without a similar agenda should at least be skeptical. |
The longsword likely didn't bend because the target sword broke on impact. If the target sword had held the longsword would have torqued more and probably would have bent because of the sudden deceleration. But the target sword fractured out of the way.
Check out my crappy captures below. First, you'll see that the kat edge struck and chipped pretty much all the way through the harder edge section. With the harder edge broken, the softer back deformed.
Next, you'll see the two target swords. They look to be the same brand. Look how thick those guards are. How cheaply machined the fullers look. It wouldn't surprise me if these were cheap swords, and one was too hard. Yes, there is a mark on the grip of the first sword. Could be a reflection of a studio light on a cheap leather grip. Could be some other way of knowing which sword was which for some purpose we don't know. Could be something nefarious... In that case, I personally I would expect a mark on the second target sword (not the first) indicating "this is the one that's going to break." Didn't happen that way...
Last, check out the longsword's moment of impact. 2 things are clear. 1) the longsword's blade is flexing. 2) the target sword is broken, not cut, through. No hard stop like with the kat, therefore no severe damage like the kat.
Seems to me to be a case of inconsistent target swords and faulty conclusions as a result. The physics seem pretty simple to me, though.
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ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
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David Sutton
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| Posted: Fri 16 Jul, 2010 1:40 pm Post subject: |
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Did anyone notice that the longsword appears to have been sabered slightly by the impact?
'Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all'
'To teach superstitions as truth is a most terrible thing'
Hypatia of Alexandria, c400AD
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Jean Henri Chandler
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| Posted: Fri 16 Jul, 2010 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Jean Thibodeau wrote: | | Jean Henri Chandler wrote: | Hamabourg did a demonstration of this with a sharp; they cut a tatami mat, then kind of played tug of war with this sharp blade, (with a bare hand) then did some disarms. All in front of a live crowd.
I'll post it when I have some time to look for it, it's on youtube.
J |
Perfectly safe as long as one's hand doesn't slip and suffer a slice.
Also grabbing a sharp blade should be done when the blade is immobilized rather than trying to stop a fast moving blade where any error in timing will be very bad.
The problem with people practicing this blade grabbing with wooden wasters or steel blunts is when it's done when it would have resulted in a cut hand with a sharp and much to easy to do when training with unsharp blades.
When training blade grabbing one should do it only in the contexts where it would be safely and efficiently done with a sharp, otherwise it's bad training and makes the technique a crutch to win bouts. ( Hope I'm explaining it clearly enough that it's a good and valid technique but only in the right conditions and context ). |
I'm hip Jean you don't need to explain for my benefit anyway, I've been doing HEMA for about ten years now 
J
Books and games on Medieval Europe Codex Integrum
Codex Guide to the Medieval Baltic Now available in print
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Fri 16 Jul, 2010 1:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Jean Henri Chandler wrote: |
I'm hip Jean you don't need to explain for my benefit anyway, I've been doing HEMA for about ten years now
J |
I'm aware of that but I often make " obvious " to the person quoted comments that are meant more to the " gallery " of people who might benefit from being let in on the " obvious " which may be information they where unaware of.
By the way, not offended at all by your comment: I'm just explaining the context of my previous comment just in case there was a misunderstanding of my intent. 
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Matthew P. Adams
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| Posted: Fri 16 Jul, 2010 2:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Chad Arnow wrote: |
Yep, I mentioned that a few posts back. |
whups, so you did, and I thought I was such a smartypants.
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Michael Edelson
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| Posted: Fri 16 Jul, 2010 3:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Chad Arnow wrote: | | The longsword likely didn't bend because the target sword broke on impact. |
That's a good point. It could have happened exactly as you described. For that to be so, however, as you suggested, one of the swords would have had to have been ridiculously brittle, and the other one not. So given that, the next question is, did the producers/testers know about it?
We cant' be sure, but we do have the marks on the swords...
New York Historical Fencing Association
www.newyorklongsword.com
Byakkokan Dojo
http://newyorkbattodo.com/
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Fri 16 Jul, 2010 3:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Michael Edelson wrote: | | Chad Arnow wrote: | | The longsword likely didn't bend because the target sword broke on impact. |
That's a good point. It could have happened exactly as you described. For that to be so, however, as you suggested, one of the swords would have had to have been ridiculously brittle, and the other one not. So given that, the next question is, did the producers/testers know about it?
We cant' be sure, but we do have the marks on the swords... |
Yes, but why mark the first sword? It would make sense to mark the "fixed" one, wouldn't it? Why mark the non-breaker? To know which one will break, you have to test several. Why mark the good ones and leave the bad one unmarked?
Based on the guards and closeups of the fullers, I have guesses as to the maker of the target swords. I won't name names, but with some brands, you're playing quality control roulette.
If they're won't take time to make a realistic test for the final scene, are they going to take the time to rockwell/vickers test swords to find the hardest one? If they're trying to fix the outcome, then yes, they will use an unrealistic test and do the homework to find the most breakable sword. They will have done their homework on what makes a breakable sword, too. That's a lot of work.
More logical and realistic is the possibility that they simply got lucky with the breaking of the target sword. If the sword had broken on the katana hit, would they have hyped it as the best? We'll never know.
You're more skeptical than me on this one.
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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