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Richard Fay
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 Posted: Tue 20 Feb, 2007 4:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Jessica Finley wrote: | | Had to share this one, which is the first place I ever saw this in action. |
Jessica,
That image is later than the fourteenth century; 15th or 16th maybe? It's an interesting example of these chains used much later than is normally accepted.
Thanks for the link!
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did! I'm going to recite poetry!"
Prince Andrew of Armar
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Allan Senefelder
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Tue 20 Feb, 2007 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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Richard, the painting is by Jan Van Eyck and is dated to 1436.
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Richard Fay
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| Posted: Tue 20 Feb, 2007 6:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Allan Senefelder wrote: | | Richard, the painting is by Jan Van Eyck and is dated to 1436. |
Thanks Allan! It's definitely a late depiction of a chain attached to breastplate and sword.
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did! I'm going to recite poetry!"
Prince Andrew of Armar
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James Arlen Gillaspie
Industry Professional
Location: upstate NY Joined: 10 Nov 2005
Posts: 587
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| Posted: Tue 20 Feb, 2007 6:26 pm Post subject: |
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I think the chain is a deliberate archaism. St. George's harness looks very much like something that would be worn for ceremonies of the Order of the Golden Fleece, being a Burgundian notion c. 1436 of what ancient Greek armour must have looked like.
jamesarlen.com
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Richard Fay
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| Posted: Wed 21 Feb, 2007 6:30 am Post subject: |
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| James Arlen Gillaspie wrote: | | I think the chain is a deliberate archaism. St. George's harness looks very much like something that would be worn for ceremonies of the Order of the Golden Fleece, being a Burgundian notion c. 1436 of what ancient Greek armour must have looked like. |
Hi James! 
The chain definitely could be an archaism. I took a look at some of my books today, and I didn't find any German effigies contemporary with the painting that showed the chains. Plenty in the fourteenth century, but none in the fifteenth.
Stay safe!
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did! I'm going to recite poetry!"
Prince Andrew of Armar
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Richard Fay
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| Posted: Wed 21 Feb, 2007 8:25 am Post subject: |
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Hello again!
I ran across this image of John de Northwood, and thought I would share it. The brass depicts one of these chains, possibly attached to a helm not in the image. Note how, in this instance, it's attached to a rosette. The lower half is a palimpsest; a restoration using a recycled brass, but the upper half is apparently period.
 Attachment: 8.19 KB
Brass of John de Northwood, circa 1330, at the Minster in Sheppey.
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did! I'm going to recite poetry!"
Prince Andrew of Armar
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Randall Moffett
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| Posted: Wed 21 Feb, 2007 9:25 am Post subject: |
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In my opinion this set up makes more sense to me just attached to the helm. With chains attached to my sword, dagger or shield seems it would get in the way to much. Now if I were wearing a great helm over a coif or bascient with aventail and wanted to get rid of my helm, boom, throw it over the shoulder and done. I just see the chains as possibly getting in my way but what is your opponent gets in close to grapple or disarm you, he has 2 feet of chain to pull now.....
Shields seems to have a strap already intended for holding so it seems suplerfluous.
I have seen a few English ones though it seems not to have been as popular as else where. How about franch and spain? Any artwork from there anyone remembers?
RPM
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Richard Fay
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| Posted: Wed 21 Feb, 2007 9:54 am Post subject: |
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| Randall Moffett wrote: | In my opinion this set up makes more sense to me just attached to the helm. With chains attached to my sword, dagger or shield seems it would get in the way to much. Now if I were wearing a great helm over a coif or bascient with aventail and wanted to get rid of my helm, boom, throw it over the shoulder and done. I just see the chains as possibly getting in my way but what is your opponent gets in close to grapple or disarm you, he has 2 feet of chain to pull now.....
Shields seems to have a strap already intended for holding so it seems suplerfluous.
I have seen a few English ones though it seems not to have been as popular as else where. How about franch and spain? Any artwork from there anyone remembers?
RPM |
Hi Randall!
There is actually at least one effigy, that of Huglin von Schoenegg, Marshal of the Duchy of Spoleto, that shows one of these chains actually attached to a small shield. The shield lays across von Schoenegg's back, and there is a chain from his chest, across his shoulder, and to the shield. It's admittedly an odd configuration, and may have just been an artist's folly. I actually noticed this today in a photo of the von Schoenegg effigy when I was looking through Paul Martin's Arms and Armour from the 9th to the 17th Century. It's interesting that you brought up the fact that chains for shields would be unnecessary.
I'm not sure these chains were in use much in France or Spain. I'll have to look around and see if I find any examples. There are plenty from the Alsace, but on German effigies. Many fourteenth century effigies and sculptures from Strasbourg show these chains. I'll have to see how west the idea travelled.
Stay safe!
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did! I'm going to recite poetry!"
Prince Andrew of Armar
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