[Jean Thibodeau]

[Lawrence Parramore]

Hi these are the picks I couldn't download earlier;

Posted: Thu 30 Aug, 2007 10:35 pm Post subject:

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I agree that there are many pieces that are associated for a variety of reasons and some were done in the working life of the pieces, but also people have naturally differing shapes, very wide very narrow , very big to very small. The 'houndskull' Bascinet in the Royal Armouries for example ( my pics were too big to put on this site?) of which I have a copy and molds taken from the original, isn't designed for a normal head in my opinion, I can put it on and see clearly but there is no room for padding at the front or back but plenty at the sides and I don't regard myself as having an abnormally shaped head However the back of this helmet is very flat, I would have liked to have put profile pics onto show what I mean.

Regards Lawrence

[James Arlen Gillaspie]

Having seen that bacinet any number of times at the RA, I can tell you that the mother-mold for the casting must have distorted, assuming the manufacturers even used one. I noticed that with some of the other castings, too. The actual piece isn't that bad.

[Randall Moffett]

As James said the true helmet is not that shape. I have handled a number of 14th century bascinets before and they were not abnormal in shape in the least so anyone telling you they were made for people with odd shaped skulls might need to take a closer look... my head is pretty average in shape and size so I am not protecting anyone. With the proper lining I am sure the helmet would have fit a average headed man quite well.

RPM

[Lawrence Parramore]

Hi James, thanks for that, well it is silicon backed with fibreglass, the mold that is, distortion is possible but still not much room in there even if it is distortion, guy must have had a small head and on examining the visor he could well have had his chin bashed, which makes me think the guy had a very small head or it was for a child.
Yeah the armouries at Leeds ar great ,I live quite close.
Regards Lawrence

[Randall Moffett]

Here is a certain RA bascinet with no visor. AS you can see on this picture the back is quite steep but fits the human head quite well. There is plenty of room to get a lining in and head.

Here is the Lyle Bascinet profile I took as well. Once more you can see the remake are not the same as the original. Plenty of room for padding and head as well.

cheers

RPM

[James Arlen Gillaspie]

Hello, Lawrence, I wasn't talking about your piece, I was talking about the mother-mold of the mold your casting was made in.

[Lawrence Parramore]

Hi, the mold I have was taken directly from the Lyle piece at the armouries, obviously the fibreglass takes a bit of room say 4 millimeters more from the inside than was the case with the original. I took the fibreglass piece to Hereford where I am finishing my blacksmithing apprentiship and we found one guy who it fitted, a tutor who is also an armourer as it happens, we found that the back of the helmet would be uncomfortable on the neck and as I said earlier the visor might contact with the chin, maybe this was normal? Also I believe this style of high backed bascinet began in France where head shaping was commonplace?
Also something to note on this is that the Visor and Bascinet may not have started life together as the design on the 'brass' trim is different, the visor has two lines of 'wiged' engraving lines intersecting whereas the bascinet has four and these are rounded not angular pattern.
I will see if the armouries will let me handle the helmet to check the difference, but don't want to detract from the original discussion here.

Regards Lawrence

[Randall Moffett]

Lawrence,

Head shaping was not common anywhere in medieval europe.... at least not mainstream peoples in the high or late periods. I have been able to look at the helmet as well and do not think it would be hard on the wearer. With the liner most of the issues would be corrected. It is probable that the aventail was lined as well making the fact it comes in contact with the jaw a non issue if it would come in contact with it. If you look at the top of the pictures you posted there are clear differences in the lines at the very top and the back. I understand the process you used but there still are differences between them. Not saying you did a bad job just that they are not the same. I set them side by side at almost the same angle and then contrasted them so the metal stands out as well. The visor could be a later addition but with the layers between the jaw and visor I'd say you'd be fine.

RPM

[Lawrence Parramore]

Thanks for that Randall,

Yes I understand what you mean, I am making some copies in metal so I will see if I can correct the distortion.

Anybody found any similar helmets to the Venetian?

Best regards Lawrence

[James Arlen Gillaspie]

Hello, Lawrence, to be absolutely clear, when one makes such a casting from an original piece, there are two main problems when it comes to accuracy. The first is shrinkage. Some mold materials are better than others, and there has been a lot of progress in the last few years, but the 'Excalibur' pieces date from a while back. By the time one has a finished casting, the combined shrinkage can be over 5% (maybe even as high as 10%!). The other common problem is flexing of the master mold. This mold usually has two pieces; a flexible, silicon based material that was painted onto the real helm (in this particular case) whose flexibility is essential to removing the real helm, and the subsequent copies, from the mold, and the 'mother mold', which is rigid and heavy, which holds the flexible mold in the right shape, lest it sag or distort. Unfortunately, it often does, particularly over time, and a great deal depends on the care the makers of the resin copies take to get everything right. Your copy shows both these problems.

[Randall Moffett]

Lawrence,

I am glad it helped. I wish I could get my graphic program to allow me to make it a bit clearer. I should be up in Leeds by the RA soon so if you live up in the area perhaps we can get a look at it. After looking at it a while back I began to agree with a friend that the need for a padded aventail under the mail one would make the helmet much fuller and fitted. It also would make the aventail look more like the artwork of the time.

How many helmets are you planning on making? What type of metal are you using? Sounds like an interesting project.

RPM

[Lawrence Parramore]

Hi Randall,

I have the Excalibur range that James mentions above plus a fair amount more, I have been working for quite a while on making user friendly alternatives to the fibreglass and will presently be making copper alloy copies, the alloy can be very tough indeed as I have found out, but can be made malleable.

And I think you are right about the aventails, maybe they had a semi rigid leather 'collar ' underneath? There are some effigies with some kind of semi rigid collars from earlier that century so maybe that is what is going on?

I have been firewelding some pieces based on this Bascinet, trying different firewelding techniques to see which was likely to be the method used, Mild steel and I did use plain borax for some of them, though sometimes flux seems to have been more of a problem than a help! certainly cleaner without it, I have not used flux for firewelding before but thought I would use it for some of my experiments.

James may have a point, in that the fibreglass can distort while curing though I think the shrinkage rate for the silicone is somewhat less than 1%

Regards Lawrence

[Randall Moffett]

I tried firewelding quite a few times.... I never have gotten it truthfully. Indeed a messy proceedure with any flux. I was told you could get good enough to not use it at all which led to more frustration... . Someday when I have more time to play around I will try again.

Sounds like alot of fun. Yuo should post more pictures. Looks like a great project.

I have been trying to get back into armouring but I move too much... Here I go again next week.

RPM

[Lawrence Parramore]

Hi, well I was trained to do firewelding without flux, but with such thin material and such long welds I thought I would try it. with and without were near perfect for tubes but the bascinet is cone shapes and this proved more problematic .
Yes I will post some pics of my armour project when I get a chance in a separate forum

Regards Lawrence

[Doug Strong]

[Lawrence Parramore]

This was my attempt at raising it in one piece;

This was a serious amount of work, and I felt I had made some error and should have left a chunk more metal on one side , in other words I should have started with a pointed egg shape to be left to form the front. It was a real challenge to hold and manipulate a piece of this volume single handed, also the weight on the end of a pair of tongs, but I am sure it would have been do able at the time, the charcoal iron they used has characteristics that make it more user friendly than modern hot rolled and far superior to wrought iron, this would have also meant the plate would have been thicker where it is needed whereas the plate I was using was uniformly thick and heavy.
One day i will try it again, but this one I trimmed right down.
The photos are in the wrong order obviously

[Russ Thomas]

Hello Folks,

Randall,

The photograph of the skull that you say is the RA. example without the visor, actually appears to me to be another one that is still at Churburg, (S.16) ? The Churburg piece is very straight at the rear and somewhat more pointed at the apex.

Merv,

The great bascinet that you have shown, was exibited in a room at the R.A. Leeds, along with several other items that were known to be Victorian fakes. They had a special room devoted to these items, included several great helms as well. It was not this helmet that the Armourers Workshop copied, it was the example in the Museé de L'Armeé, in Paris, (H.24).

Doug,

I remember Ian saying that the helmet in Venice was very small, did he not also express doubts that it was in fact actually all made in one piece ? Though I do remember him saying that although he had seen it , he had not actually handled it and examined it.

( Sorry Doug, I have just re read your post and that seems to answer my query anyway !).


Regards as ever,

Russ