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Christian Henry Tobler
Location: Oxford, CT Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Posts: 704
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Bill Tsafa
Location: Brooklyn, NY Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 599
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 Posted: Fri 12 Nov, 2010 12:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Steven H wrote: | | The article you quote says the blade was 35.5". And Albion's recreation of it weighs a mere 3 lbs 11oz. |
You looking on the wrong line. This is what the one I pointed out says:
"Due to the considerable pitting on all surfaces, this sword from 1250-1350 was probably excavated or was part of a river find. The 43.25" long blade bears several inlayed marks on both sides, possibly of latten or brass. The pommel features unusual decoration in the form of rosettes that have been stamped on the central flats of its face."
| Quote: | | And I've handled both Badger Blades and originals at the Higgins museum. The Badger blades are terribly inaccurate recreations of medieval swords. Overweight and poorly balanced. |
That is subjective. Historical swords came in lots of different sizes with different balance points. Different strokes to different folks.... and different purposes. What is an overweight and poorly balanced sword for unarmored combat is great for mail combat.
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And I've been hit with steel blunts by SCA heavy list guys on unarmoured parts of my body. No broken bones. Barely slowed me down. Assuming that bones will be broken or limbs maimed is inaccurate. It may happen. But not reliably.
And that's what bugs me when I do heavy list. The assumption that a blow that barely phased me would've crippled me had it been delivered with steel to mail and padding. I still do it. And enjoy it. But I know from direct personal experience that it's not realistic.
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I don't know where you fight. The calibrations do vary from kingdom to kingdom. In the East and West we hit hard. Atlantia (Virginia, NC area) calibrate the hardest. You go there and tell a Knight what you said here before a fight and they will light you up. Keep in mind that we are allowed to take light shots if we wish.... but do not have to. The East Kingdom Rules say that a shot has to be hard enough to wound through mail. Reason I know is because a Knight in my area was accused of excessive force, and that was his defense. I usually have two swords with me... a friendly one weighting about 2.5 lbs and a mean one weighting about 3 lbs. That half pound makes a world of difference.
No athlete/youth can fight tenaciously who has never received any blows: he must see his blood flow and hear his teeth crack... then he will be ready for battle.
Roger of Hoveden, 1174-1201
www.poconoshooting.com
www.poconogym.com
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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Bill Tsafa
Location: Brooklyn, NY Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 599
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| Posted: Fri 12 Nov, 2010 12:47 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry about that. I'm multitasking at work 
No athlete/youth can fight tenaciously who has never received any blows: he must see his blood flow and hear his teeth crack... then he will be ready for battle.
Roger of Hoveden, 1174-1201
www.poconoshooting.com
www.poconogym.com
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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| Posted: Fri 12 Nov, 2010 12:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Bill Tsafa wrote: | | Steven H wrote: | | And I've handled both Badger Blades and originals at the Higgins museum. The Badger blades are terribly inaccurate recreations of medieval swords. Overweight and poorly balanced. |
That is subjective. Historical swords came in lots of different sizes with different balance points. Different strokes to different folks.... and different purposes. What is an overweight and poorly balanced sword for unarmored combat is great for mail combat. |
As Steven wrote, swords made by Badger Blades are not accurate representations of historical swords. This is no surprise to me as I do not believe Badger Blades is attempting to make swords that are historical in nature. I don't remember ever seeing them claim such a thing.
And you're right, the concept of something being overweight or poorly balanced is subjective. However, it is worth noting here because this discussion is one that contrasts SCA fighting to historical combat. As such, I think the statement of non-historical weapons certainly affects the issue surrounding the historical accuracy (or lack thereof) of any combat form that might use such weapons.
I think it's reasonable to expect that any combat form that is to be deemed historical in nature will likely require the use of weapons, armour, clothing and other things that are also historical in nature. Isn't it the combination of all of these things that creates the answer?
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Bill Tsafa
Location: Brooklyn, NY Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 599
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| Posted: Fri 12 Nov, 2010 1:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Nathan Robinson wrote: |
I think it's reasonable to expect that any combat form that is to be deemed historical in nature will likely require the use of weapons, armour, clothing and other things that are also historical in nature. Isn't it the combination of all of these things that creates the answer? |
Sure... and some people try to be as accurate as possible. Some can not. All systems of practice will allow for some inaccuracy for safety sake. A fencing mask for example will change the target area so that it is 2 to 3 inches in front of where it would be if no mask was used. I am willing to sacrifice some level of accuracy in order to get the greatest number of people on the field. To me more bodies is an increased level of accuracy that is worth some sacrifice in armor and clothing authenticity. Historical accuracy to me is trying to coordinate 2,000 people in flanking maneuvers and holding a line. The pushing, screaming, tripping, inability to hear over the banging or weapons and armor, inability to see anything but the man in front of you... all that is accuracy too.
No athlete/youth can fight tenaciously who has never received any blows: he must see his blood flow and hear his teeth crack... then he will be ready for battle.
Roger of Hoveden, 1174-1201
www.poconoshooting.com
www.poconogym.com
Last edited by Bill Tsafa on Fri 12 Nov, 2010 1:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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| Posted: Fri 12 Nov, 2010 1:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Bill Tsafa wrote: | | Sure... and some people try to be as accurate as possible. Some can not. All systems of practice will allow for some inaccuracy for safety sake. A fencing mask for example will change the target area so that it is 2 to 3 inches in front of where it would be if no mask was used. I am willing to sacrifice some level of accuracy in order to get the greatest number of people on the field. To me that is an increased level of accuracy that is worth some sacrifice in armor and clothing. Historical accuracy to me is trying to coordinate 2,000 people. The pushing, screaming, tripping, inability to hear over the banging or weapons and armor. |
That's interesting, but off-topic to my point.
To be more clear: I'm curious what your thoughts are regarding the use of weapons that are greatly dissimilar to historical specimens and how that might affect the historical viability of forms of combat that utilize said weapons.
Thank you.
.:. Visit my Collection Gallery :: View my Reading List :: View my Wish List :: See Pages I Like :: Find me on Facebook .:.
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Bill Tsafa
Location: Brooklyn, NY Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 599
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| Posted: Fri 12 Nov, 2010 1:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Nathan Robinson wrote: |
To be more clear: I'm curious what your thoughts are regarding the use of weapons that are greatly dissimilar to historical specimens and how that might affect the historical viability of forms of combat that utilize said weapons.
Thank you. |
There have been a number of times over the last few years that I have substituted a steel blade for rattan and have been able to effectively use all the techniques in steel combat practice that I train to do with rattan. A significant factor to this is that I weigh and balance my rattan swords like real swords. I do not see a significant difference and can do with a steel blade what I train to do with rattan. It is probably significant that because I also train with steel blunts and sharps the transition is easier for me.
There was a time that I was training in WMA longsword. At the time I had a low ceiling could not do do my drills at home without hitting the ceiling with my long blade. I compensated by doing my longsword drills with an axe which had a 2.5 lb head. The weight and balance was close enough so I could adequately do my drills... not perfect but good enough.
No athlete/youth can fight tenaciously who has never received any blows: he must see his blood flow and hear his teeth crack... then he will be ready for battle.
Roger of Hoveden, 1174-1201
www.poconoshooting.com
www.poconogym.com
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Sam Gordon Campbell
Location: Australia. Joined: 16 Nov 2008
Posts: 678
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| Posted: Fri 12 Nov, 2010 4:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Nathan Robinson wrote: | | ... holding two swords, one in each hand, and flapping them at a high rate of speed to generate enough force to lift me off the ground... using those swords to soar around the skies for hours at a time... |
Surely one of the fencing masters was able to do this! 
That's what you get when you practice heaps!
Member of Australia's Stoccata School of Defence since 2008.
Host of Crash Course HEMA.
Founder of The Van Dieman's Land Stage Gladiators.
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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P. Cha
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| Posted: Fri 12 Nov, 2010 8:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Bill Tsafa wrote: | | P. Cha wrote: | | Bill Tsafa wrote: | | It is very hard to say that this or that is not historically accurate sword use. |
Your confusing accurate with plausible. Accurate means you have definitave proof. Plausible means it could have been. A lot of the SCA sword techniques maybe plausible, but none of it is accurate. |
My position has always been that SCA techniques are "historically applicable". I never intended to say anything more then that. I have actually tried to avoid saying that. You can not have historical medieval combat unless you start factoring in horses. The horse was the main weapon of the medieval knight. In order to get "really historically accurate" you have to also factor in fortifications, siege weapons and projectile weapons.... as well as politics, all of which will have an effect on combat. The same could be said for Historical Manuals that cover dueling techniques... They are techniques that could plausibly be used in a combat situation.
Note the thread title asks "How Similar SCA fighting is to real Fighting". It does not ask "Is SCA fighting actual medieval combat?" Or are "WMA tournaments actual medieval combat?" Answer to both is no. |
Except that SCA combat isn't very applicable because the assumption of SCA combat is that mail can be overcome by one good twack of a sword. It really can't. I have personally done tests that says so. Hell even spike TV's deadliest warrior had a test that says so and they used butted chain. And even your longsword teacher has done some very good tests that says as much. The only way you gonna get any accuracy is via forsenic analysis and experimental archeology. Which I do admit would be an interesting way to try and decode earlier fighting styles. However such an endeavor would be VERY expensive to say the least (if there is somebody willing to fund such, I am available for hire  ). Now SCA mace or hammer or axe techniques...those we may have some winners.
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Bill Tsafa
Location: Brooklyn, NY Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 599
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| Posted: Mon 15 Nov, 2010 6:59 am Post subject: |
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| P. Cha wrote: | | Bill Tsafa wrote: | | P. Cha wrote: | | Bill Tsafa wrote: | | It is very hard to say that this or that is not historically accurate sword use. |
Your confusing accurate with plausible. Accurate means you have definitave proof. Plausible means it could have been. A lot of the SCA sword techniques maybe plausible, but none of it is accurate. |
My position has always been that SCA techniques are "historically applicable". I never intended to say anything more then that. I have actually tried to avoid saying that. You can not have historical medieval combat unless you start factoring in horses. The horse was the main weapon of the medieval knight. In order to get "really historically accurate" you have to also factor in fortifications, siege weapons and projectile weapons.... as well as politics, all of which will have an effect on combat. The same could be said for Historical Manuals that cover dueling techniques... They are techniques that could plausibly be used in a combat situation.
Note the thread title asks "How Similar SCA fighting is to real Fighting". It does not ask "Is SCA fighting actual medieval combat?" Or are "WMA tournaments actual medieval combat?" Answer to both is no. |
Except that SCA combat isn't very applicable because the assumption of SCA combat is that mail can be overcome by one good twack of a sword. It really can't. I have personally done tests that says so. Hell even spike TV's deadliest warrior had a test that says so and they used butted chain. And even your longsword teacher has done some very good tests that says as much. The only way you gonna get any accuracy is via forsenic analysis and experimental archeology. Which I do admit would be an interesting way to try and decode earlier fighting styles. However such an endeavor would be VERY expensive to say the least (if there is somebody willing to fund such, I am available for hire ). Now SCA mace or hammer or axe techniques...those we may have some winners. |
See my earlier posts. I explained that in the SCA we stop after one good blow. In real combat you don't stop after one good blow. From what I recall, in WMA some of the plays in the historic manuals require multiple strikes as well and assume the first blow is not good enough. Usually in both WMA and SCA tournaments we stop after one good blow for simplicity sake. In local SCA tournaments we do sometimes do counted blow tournaments so that they have a more realistic flavor, I mentioned that in earlier posts too.
You don't even need mail to protect from cuts, thick leather or layers of cloth will protect from cuts too. It will not protect from the impact as well. No question that the axe and mace will work better if they can make contact. They are slower and can be blocked easier. A sword in the hands of a skilled fighter is fast enough that I can not relay on my eyes to block. I look for clues in the persons shoulders to see where the sword is might be going... which opens up the door for deception. Ten blows that land with a sword are better then ten blocked blows with mace or axe. I have used shield and axe on many occasions so I know the forms strengths and weaknesses.
You should not expect to drop a man with a single blow from a sword. You should not expect to drop a man from a single shot of 9mm either. See earlier posts on that.
People seem to be having a hard time separating the techniques practiced in SCA or WMA from the Rules set up for particular tournaments. The rules can be easily changed... and often are. See videos I posted earlier of Pennsic Grappling tournament.
I can offer you as evidence a contest I did about two years ago using steel blades and no rules. Who won or lost is of no consequence. The point is that I came in with my SCA training and the other guy came in with his WMA training, and we were both competitive. We both were able to make adjustments to deal with changing circumstances that neither one of us exactly trained for. I am in blue with shield.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77SirDK0ggs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axksAetRMVc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdGrVf9NMy4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTU1F1TTDes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_AszA3fm28
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQGTyolEuBA
As you can see, the rules can change. The techniques learned with rattan can be transferred to a steel blade.
No athlete/youth can fight tenaciously who has never received any blows: he must see his blood flow and hear his teeth crack... then he will be ready for battle.
Roger of Hoveden, 1174-1201
www.poconoshooting.com
www.poconogym.com
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Jean Henri Chandler
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| Posted: Wed 24 Nov, 2010 9:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Jean Henri Chandler wrote: | | Christian Henry Tobler wrote: | Hi again Jean,
Do you have some specific examples of late medieval battle depictions with fully compromised armour? |
'Fully' compromised aand late medieval both narrow it down some, but I believe I do yes. Would you prefer artistic or manuscript sources?
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One reason I ask is because sometimes images are interpreted out of context. A good example is the Manesse Codex, which has been cited online at times as non-biblical evidence of helm-splitting. The problem there: Manesse is a collection of songs and poetry, not a history of battle; its illustrations depict specific poets, their lyrics, etc. For different reasons than those of the Mac Bible, we can't use it as literal evidence of such feats.
Cheers,
CHT |
I agree, personally I would not necessarily use these as evidence especially without corroborating archeology or modern tests. I'm just being pedantic about the sources, because I think we have to be careful about the data. The data mostly support the conclusions you and I have reached, but not entirely since both art and literature leave the door cracked just a little biit. I'll upload a few examples of what I mean when I get home from work tonight.
J |
| Christian Henry Tobler wrote: |
Hi Jean,
I'm interested in either. Thanks!
Yours,
CHT |
Ok, I want to reiterate, I don't think this type of artwork is anything close to real evidence that you can cut through plate armor with swords or axes, but it is something we have to keep in mind in such discussions. I think this is a fairly typical example:
This does look like fully compromised armor though, I don't know the source but it's period.
This is another example from the same source (an ARMA essay)
J
Books and games on Medieval Europe Codex Integrum
Codex Guide to the Medieval Baltic Now available in print
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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Jean Henri Chandler
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| Posted: Wed 24 Nov, 2010 10:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Bill Tsafa wrote: |
I can offer you as evidence a contest I did about two years ago
As you can see, the rules can change. The techniques learned with rattan can be transferred to a steel blade. |
Bill, that is nice and you can obviously swing a sword, but it doesn't have any relevance for the thread; it doesn't even have any real relevance to the point you were making, that is just you fighting with one random guy. If you want to prove something about SCA skills vs historically derived skills, join one of those open a HEMA tournaments they now hold at various parts of the country every year and fight a series of people, if you make it to the quarter finals using your SCA derived techniques I think that would speak loudly and you would get a whole lot of people paying attention.
The reality is though, a strike with an effectively blunted sword, or two or three or four strikes with a sword, isn't likely to kill or seriously hurt someone even in light armor, unless it can cut through it or stab through it. They have been doing full-contact, full-speed steel HEMA tournaments for a while with blunt steel swords using little more than what amounts to a gambeson, some lacrosse gloves and a fencing mask, and nobody has died yet.
The underlying SCA heavy combat assumption about cutting through mail (or stopping their heart or whatever from the blunt impact) is ridiculous in terms of historical fencing. There may be excellent reasons for having such rules (and all the others about not striking at lower legs or not 'winding up' strikes with polearms or longswords and etc.) for mass combat like Pennsic, but that is simply not relevant to the question in the OP.
Jean
Books and games on Medieval Europe Codex Integrum
Codex Guide to the Medieval Baltic Now available in print
Last edited by Jean Henri Chandler on Wed 24 Nov, 2010 11:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Jean Henri Chandler
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| Posted: Wed 24 Nov, 2010 10:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Nathan Robinson wrote: |
This actually happened to me once. |
yeah I know, really smarts too don't it? Especially if you spill some lemon juice on that...
J
Books and games on Medieval Europe Codex Integrum
Codex Guide to the Medieval Baltic Now available in print
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Jean Henri Chandler
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David Clark
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| Posted: Thu 25 Nov, 2010 9:22 am Post subject: |
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Ok. The above vids confirmed this after watching numerous others; has anyone else noticed how much more fit / thinner the average ARMA/HEMA, etc practitioner is than your average SCA fighter? I am not trying to rag on anyone here, just wondering why this appears to be so?
(NOTE: I fight SCA heavy and am a slender guy, though I would love to give the more 'authentic' fighting a go!  )
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Jean Henri Chandler
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| Posted: Thu 25 Nov, 2010 11:05 am Post subject: |
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Ironically, I am a HEMA fighter and I'm fatter than probably almost all the SCA guys out there.... 
The guy who won the match in first video I linked to, Henry Rhodes, is actually a member of the HEMA club I train with in New Orleans. I introduced him to HEMA about 4 years ago but I'm having an increasingly hard time keeping up with him now. He rides his bike 20 miles a day and does a lot of weight training etc. Most of the men and women in my club now are very fit and they are all spending more and more time with strength and endurance training, since it's increasingly necessary to hold your own in a tournament.
I think basically we are seeing a similar type of evolution from toughman and the early days of UFC to something a bit more like the type of modern MMA training that is done today, with a lot of the old fat guys like say, tank abbot or butter bean are being gradually weeded out. I know I am a bit of a Dinosaur now, I'll be lucky to hang on in tournaments another year or two. But It has really been cool seeing the level of competition and training going up and up for the last ten years, and I'd rather be a "little" fish in a big pond than the other way around.
J
Books and games on Medieval Europe Codex Integrum
Codex Guide to the Medieval Baltic Now available in print
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P. Cha
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| Posted: Thu 25 Nov, 2010 12:43 pm Post subject: |
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Jean I donīt think sending Bill up against tourney winners is really fair. It skews things for the HEMA. Itīs like if we had you fight our superdukes. The dukes would win not because of technique but because they are just plain old better fighters. And that is all such duels really proves. You can win fights with bad techniques if your stronger and faster then your opponent.
Edit: Bill, the duel with Adam was under the rule of no armor...and as you were using SCA techniques, you were winding up for attacks WAY more then strictly needed and as such it showed the flaw of using such techniques in such combat. And for armored combat...well once again, SCA techniques doesnīt let you magically ignore armor.
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