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Rod Walker
Location: NSW, Australia. Joined: 05 Feb 2004
Posts: 230
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 Posted: Thu 07 Jun, 2007 7:55 pm Post subject: |
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This is lovely to watch.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kj4Ng6DBfrg
Cheers
Rod
Jouster
www.jousting.com.au
"Come! Let us lay a lance in rest,
And tilt at windmills under a wild sky!
For who would live so petty and unblessed
That dare not tilt at something, ere he die?"
--Errantry, John Galsworthy
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Christian Henry Tobler
Location: Oxford, CT Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Posts: 704
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| Posted: Thu 07 Jun, 2007 8:29 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Hugh,
| Hugh Knight wrote: | | Christian, I've done fighting where shield striking was permitted and encouraged and our experience is that it's not the problem you may consider it to be. Many times placing a wrap correctly is as much about timing as position: If, for example, you can fake your opponent into moving his shiled to his right side you have an ideal situation for a wrap. Likewise, it's very effective to use your shield to pin your opponent's shield as you throw your wrap which effectively prevents him from shield bashing you while you do it. Of course, a shield strike is one of the things you do have to be cognizant of when wrapping, but it's nothing like a universal deterrant. |
I suspect we only disagree then about the degree here. I'm aware these can work, but they're an uber-technique in the SCA and I suspect they might not be elsewhere. Unless I'm mistaken about the rules of your lists, you're not allowed to grab the shield either. Is that correct?
| Quote: | | What the shield strikes you mention *really* prevent is grappling. Many folks who've criticized the SCA over the years have complained (with a great deal of validity, don't get me wrong!) about it's lack of grappling. When shields are used, however, grappling is very dangerous because you open yourself to a shield attack. I find it no surpise, therefore, that in looking at the Manessa Codex we see lots of shield use and lots of grappling, but no grappling while using shields. |
I agree with this entirely. And, in all candor, I think that the lack of grappling is far from being the main deterrent to realistic combat in the SCA. I'd say far bigger contributors are the whole warfare vs. tournament fighting paradigm issue, and the way blows are reckoned in the usual wound pathology system. I'm aware, naturally, that you favor fighting in counted blows tourneys, and frankly when I've seen those there's far less difference in what a tourney company is doing and how one of our own is run.
The grappling problem is highly overrated, provided you're not trying to recreate a judicial duel, which is obviously not the thrust of SCA tournaments.
| Quote: | | With respect (really--I'm asking, not taking you to task), Christian, how do you know that? Does it show up somewhere other than in Lignitzer (with arming swords--I'm aware of other instances with longswords)? If not, I would argue Lignitzer's play requires a fairly close attack in some interpretations. It all comes down to the part of the sword you're striking with and where you're striking. I've tried it at a number of different distances and have not found that closer or father away is better; both can be done and both lead well to the thrust that comes after the Sturzhau. Again, that's based on never having seen it in any other source--I am prepared to believe some other source talks about this. |
Well, Talhoffer's 1467 codex. It's also covered in Meyer, where it's delivered from the Zufechten, not the Krieg, and is alluded to in Doebringer, von Speyer, and...gee, I think I'm missing something...let me dig into that. In any case, SCA usage tends to be in what would be the Krieg, not the Zufechten, at least those I've seen. But do please correct me if I'm wrong, because this is indeed an interesting subject.
All the best,
Christian
Christian Henry Tobler
Order of Selohaar
Freelance Academy Press: Books on Western Martial Arts and Historical Swordsmanship
Author, In Saint George's Name: An Anthology of Medieval German Fighting Arts
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Jean Henri Chandler
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| Posted: Thu 07 Jun, 2007 8:37 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah that is very good and very well presented, I hadn't seen that before. Thanks for posting.
J
Books and games on Medieval Europe Codex Integrum
Codex Guide to the Medieval Baltic Now available in print
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Craig Peters
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| Posted: Thu 07 Jun, 2007 8:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Gavin Kisebach wrote: |
You're right on about that. I wonder if this was the case historically. Were there more scholastic groups or individuals, who would have been the target audience of schools and books? Were there those who tought them frivolous? Do we have any records of thier opinions? Or did they get themselves killed for thier ignorance before they could write them down 
I know that there was plenty of interschool trashtalking, was there anyone who rejected the schools altogether? |
I don't know the answer for sure to these questions. Judging by the prologue to the Getty (if I'm not mistaken) version of Fior di Battaglia, Fiore indicates that other masters or students would challenge him to combat to see if he was skilled or not. So clearly, there were significant difference in skill and competency, though whether these were differences in skill among individuals or a certain school remains unclear.
Likewise, the Doebringer manuscript clearly indicates that there are kloppfechters, fencers who perform the art badly as a form of entertainment. So again, we have evidence for differences in skill level and quality of fighting from the medieval period.
But whether or not there were more scholastic groups who had less pragmatic skill is uncertain, though George Silver certainly seemed to think this was the case with Italian rapier masters (that they lacked skill; I don't know think he ever accuses them of what we might call being "too scholarly").
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Hugh Knight
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| Posted: Thu 07 Jun, 2007 11:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Christian Henry Tobler wrote: | | I suspect we only disagree then about the degree here. I'm aware these can work, but they're an uber-technique in the SCA and I suspect they might not be elsewhere. |
I think you're probably right. I think they would have been a tool in the box and not as widespread as they are in some SCA circles. I was only arguing against the notion that they were never used, an opinion widespread in the WMA community.
| Quote: | | Unless I'm mistaken about the rules of your lists, you're not allowed to grab the shield either. Is that correct? |
That's one that seems to vary. I've done a lot of it, myself. It changes surprisingly little of the fight, believe it or not. The grabbing hand is *spectacularly* vulnerable, for one thing.
| Quote: | I agree with this entirely. And, in all candor, I think that the lack of grappling is far from being the main deterrent to realistic combat in the SCA. I'd say far bigger contributors are the whole warfare vs. tournament fighting paradigm issue, and the way blows are reckoned in the usual wound pathology system. I'm aware, naturally, that you favor fighting in counted blows tourneys, and frankly when I've seen those there's far less difference in what a tourney company is doing and how one of our own is run.
The grappling problem is highly overrated, provided you're not trying to recreate a judicial duel, which is obviously not the thrust of SCA tournaments. |
When I say the lack of grappling is the SCAs main failing I mean in terms of recreating Kampffechten. As you know perfectly well, if you don't have to fear a grappling attack you can do things you wouldn't otherwise do, so the lack of grappling does make it harder to simulate true earnest duels. But, as you know, I don't believe those are what the SCA can do, and when they fight friendly deeds of arms with a counted blow system, as you say, then they come very close to approximating a real form of combat, thus giving meaning to what would otherwise just be a game of modern stick tag.
| Quote: | | Well, Talhoffer's 1467 codex. It's also covered in Meyer, where it's delivered from the Zufechten, not the Krieg, and is alluded to in Doebringer, von Speyer, and...gee, I think I'm missing something...let me dig into that. In any case, SCA usage tends to be in what would be the Krieg, not the Zufechten, at least those I've seen. But do please correct me if I'm wrong, because this is indeed an interesting subject. |
Sorry, I know about most of those. I asked if you knew of it somewhere else with *arming swords*. I think it lends itself better to use in the Krieg with arming swords than it would with longswords. In fact, I'm pretty sure that's what we're seeing in the bottom half of plate 8 in I.33 (although I know Messrs. Hand and Wagner disagree with this interpretation). As you'll see, the Scholar has trapped the Priest's sword & buckler and is making a clear false-edge cut to the back of the Priest's arm as evidenced by the position of the Scholar's hand which is just as it would be in a very deep Sturzhau or wrap--the back of the hand is to us.
And yes, in the SCA they can be used from the Zufechten (with arming sword and shield); I made something of a specialty of doing that for a while.
Regards,
Hugh
www.schlachtschule.org
Last edited by Hugh Knight on Thu 07 Jun, 2007 11:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Thu 07 Jun, 2007 11:28 pm Post subject: |
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If you will forgive an unsophisticated general comment here: I suspect that in period, between different schools or masters, that they would be arguing about what works or doesn't work as much as we do but with the advantage of being much closer to the deadly realities of the consequences of being wrong. 
By the way I enjoy the back and forth of these discussions including the ones that sometimes go south like the edge/flat parry thing as I can learn something from all the views: As long as people try to discuss stuff calmly and politely and accept that they probably won't change each others mind(s) the exchanges can bring up many interesting questions even if agreement on the answers is always more difficult.
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Christian Henry Tobler
Location: Oxford, CT Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Posts: 704
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| Posted: Fri 08 Jun, 2007 6:33 am Post subject: |
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Hi Hugh,
| Hugh Knight wrote: | | I think you're probably right. I think they would have been a tool in the box and not as widespread as they are in some SCA circles. I was only arguing against the notion that they were never used, an opinion widespread in the WMA community. |
Ok, gotcha.
| Quote: | | That's one that seems to vary. I've done a lot of it, myself. It changes surprisingly little of the fight, believe it or not. The grabbing hand is *spectacularly* vulnerable, for one thing. |
Yes, I can see that.
| Quote: | | When I say the lack of grappling is the SCAs main failing I mean in terms of recreating Kampffechten. As you know perfectly well, if you don't have to fear a grappling attack you can do things you wouldn't otherwise do, so the lack of grappling does make it harder to simulate true earnest duels. But, as you know, I don't believe those are what the SCA can do, and when they fight friendly deeds of arms with a counted blow system, as you say, then they come very close to approximating a real form of combat, thus giving meaning to what would otherwise just be a game of modern stick tag. |
I suppose it depends on what type of feat of arms we're talking about. Jacques de Lailang's deeds become pretty rough and tumble, but I wonder if those are outliers on the period tourney scene. On the whole however, I agree with your point.
| Quote: | | Sorry, I know about most of those. I asked if you knew of it somewhere else with *arming swords*. I think it lends itself better to use in the Krieg with arming swords than it would with longswords. In fact, I'm pretty sure that's what we're seeing in the bottom half of plate 8 in I.33 (although I know Messrs. Hand and Wagner disagree with this interpretation). As you'll see, the Scholar has trapped the Priest's sword & buckler and is making a clear false-edge cut to the back of the Priest's arm as evidenced by the position of the Scholar's hand which is just as it would be in a very deep Sturzhau or wrap--the back of the hand is to us. |
Ah, sorry...my mistake in not reading your post more carefully. I have to say I don't recall interpreting this play in I.33 as the blow you're seeing, but let me review the image and text first before committing to that with any more vigor.
As for Sturzhau done with an arming sword, we can turn to Lecküchner's Messerfechten to find his analogue for it: the Winckerhau, his sixth master stroke with the sword. As far as I know (and I'll double check this) this is done from the Zufechten exclusively. Now, there's no shield to circumvent in the Krieg here, so this may or may not be a helpful data point.
| Quote: | | And yes, in the SCA they can be used from the Zufechten (with arming sword and shield); I made something of a specialty of doing that for a while. |
How typical an SCA application would you consider that to be? The wrap shots I've observed were always performed close; however, I'm not a regular observer of SCA fighting, obviously.
Cheers,
CHT
Christian Henry Tobler
Order of Selohaar
Freelance Academy Press: Books on Western Martial Arts and Historical Swordsmanship
Author, In Saint George's Name: An Anthology of Medieval German Fighting Arts
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Gary A. Chelette
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| Posted: Fri 08 Jun, 2007 7:17 am Post subject: |
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Excellent video! Very well done. The feel and the location fits perfectly. The style and the fighters were outstanding.
No long Hollywood fights, just quick and deadly. I enjoyed that very much.
Are you scared, Connor?
No, Cousin Dugal. I'm not!
Don't talk nonsense, man. I peed my kilt the first time I went into battle.
Oh, aye. Angus pees his kilt all the time!
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Jean Henri Chandler
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| Posted: Fri 08 Jun, 2007 7:21 am Post subject: |
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| Gary A. Chelette wrote: |
Excellent video! Very well done. The feel and the location fits perfectly. The style and the fighters were outstanding.
No long Hollywood fights, just quick and deadly. I enjoyed that very much. |
Those weren't fights they were specific attacks and counters from Lichtenauer (I think), demonstrated from different angles. It's a system you see 
I actually think it would be really cool though to have real HEMA techniques like that in Hollywood movies, (though every time I bring that up everyone shouts me down) and you are right, real fights are quick. Like in those Kirosawa movies.
J
Books and games on Medieval Europe Codex Integrum
Codex Guide to the Medieval Baltic Now available in print
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Gary A. Chelette
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| Posted: Fri 08 Jun, 2007 7:26 am Post subject: |
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| Jean Henri Chandler wrote: | | Gary A. Chelette wrote: |
Excellent video! Very well done. The feel and the location fits perfectly. The style and the fighters were outstanding.
No long Hollywood fights, just quick and deadly. I enjoyed that very much. |
Those weren't fights they were specific attacks and counters from Lichtenauer (I think), demonstrated from different angles. It's a system you see
J |
Correct, I knew that. It just was done so well and fluid. Smooth and well rehearsed. It's the same in Karate or Judo, You practice over and over until it gets to be second nature. What shows is these guys have been doing that for a long while.
Are you scared, Connor?
No, Cousin Dugal. I'm not!
Don't talk nonsense, man. I peed my kilt the first time I went into battle.
Oh, aye. Angus pees his kilt all the time!
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Jean Henri Chandler
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| Posted: Fri 08 Jun, 2007 8:14 am Post subject: |
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| Gary A. Chelette wrote: |
Correct, I knew that. It just was done so well and fluid. Smooth and well rehearsed. It's the same in Karate or Judo, You practice over and over until it gets to be second nature. What shows is these guys have been doing that for a long while. |
Probably, but maybe not as much as you might think. Most of those are fairly standard longsword techniques you can learn with a few months of drill.
There are a lot of demonstrations like this, albiet not as well presented. For example this other German HEMA group
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3DhjFUOG6Y
Or this one in Spain
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYwdE3f5fFQ
Even I can do most of those. Occasionally even one of those sexy half-sword counters or disarms in sparring  Thats the hard part 
J
Books and games on Medieval Europe Codex Integrum
Codex Guide to the Medieval Baltic Now available in print
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Joe Fults
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| Posted: Fri 08 Jun, 2007 8:20 am Post subject: |
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| Jean Henri Chandler wrote: | I actually think it would be really cool though to have real HEMA techniques like that in Hollywood movies, (though every time I bring that up everyone shouts me down) and you are right, real fights are quick. Like in those Kirosawa movies.
J |
Just showing you the love is all!
You're right its fun to watch...at least when you have some appreciation of what you are seeing (in my case some is a very small quantity, but apparently enough).
"The goal shouldn’t be to avoid being evil; it should be to actively do good." - Danah Boyd
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Hugh Knight
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| Posted: Fri 08 Jun, 2007 8:25 am Post subject: |
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| Christian Henry Tobler wrote: | | Ah, sorry...my mistake in not reading your post more carefully. I have to say I don't recall interpreting this play in I.33 as the blow you're seeing, but let me review the image and text first before committing to that with any more vigor. |
Excellent. I look forward to your comment on the point. Look closely at the hand and sword positions in the picture; the sword is almost vertical and the back of the Scholar's hand it to us, just *exactly* as it would look if I were whipping a wrap over my opponent's arm. I've been told the sword is being used to *lock* the Priest's arm, but if that were the case then the strong of the Scholar's sword would be on the Priest's arm rather than the weak of the blade as shown here. Moreover, the sword isn't necessary to lock the Priest's arm because of the way it's being held (as in Talhoffer's similar play). In fairness however, I should say this could as easily represent a Schnitt as a Sturzhau since the text says nothing about it. The technique is seen again on the top half of plate 24.
| Quote: | | As for Sturzhau done with an arming sword, we can turn to Lecküchner's Messerfechten to find his analogue for it: the Winckerhau, his sixth master stroke with the sword. As far as I know (and I'll double check this) this is done from the Zufechten exclusively. Now, there's no shield to circumvent in the Krieg here, so this may or may not be a helpful data point. |
Interesting; I only recently acquired a copy of Leküchner's book but I don't have a translation so I haven't really looked at it closely yet. On a side note, I'm truly surprised at the number of Messer blows done with the short edge.
| Quote: | | How typical an SCA application would you consider that to be? The wrap shots I've observed were always performed close; however, I'm not a regular observer of SCA fighting, obviously. |
Oh, it's *very* common. Many SCAdians call it a "half wrap" and use it in the Zufechten all the time, at least in my old region. It was taught to me as a way to act at long range in a way that comes in over or under the shield, although it is most often done at an angle of about 45 degrees; I have to admit I was quite amused when I learned about the Sturzhau and remember thinking "Hey, I do that!".
Regards,
Hugh
www.schlachtschule.org
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Christian Henry Tobler
Location: Oxford, CT Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Posts: 704
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Hugh Knight
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| Posted: Fri 08 Jun, 2007 9:11 am Post subject: |
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| Christian Henry Tobler wrote: | | Interesting on the half-wrap. Indeed, that sounds just like a Sturzhau, or at least it's conclusion. Do you guys start the blow as an Oberhau and then flip it mid-stream? |
Yes, exactly; it makes for a *wickedly* sneaky blow, plus changing the arc of the strike adds tremendous force to the blow.
Regards,
Hugh
www.schlachtschule.org
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Greg Mele
Industry Professional
Location: Chicago, IL USA Joined: 20 Mar 2006
Posts: 356
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| Posted: Fri 08 Jun, 2007 12:21 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Christian,
| Christian Henry Tobler wrote: |
| Quote: | | And yes, in the SCA they can be used from the Zufechten (with arming sword and shield); I made something of a specialty of doing that for a while. |
How typical an SCA application would you consider that to be? The wrap shots I've observed were always performed close; however, I'm not a regular observer of SCA fighting, obviously.
|
To support Hugh here - a "wrap" thrown at distance while closing is pretty common in the SCA, called "half wraps" or "thumb leaders". I have to say that I used them a lot when I fought SCA, usually to the back of the thigh, behind the shield with a step off-line - almost exactly like the description we have of the "coup de jarnac". And Hugh is right, even mail will stop this, but agains an unarmoured target or behind the target? Well, if I can judge what you can do to tatami as any guide, if you hit the hamstring, you'd cut it deep, maybe cripple the leg.
Now the sort of flailing, octopus arm wrap done toe-to-toe you are thinking of is the common technique in the SCA and no, it has no historical connection, remote or otherwise. But really, consider this - in a combat system with no shield strikes and no grappling - this becomes the substitution. When you know that, how it came to be makes sense. Not historical, not good martial arts in the larger real combat sense, but good sense within the martial sport of SCA combat.
And Hugh...I know this is going to stun you, but your analysis of SCA vs. historical in this thread and mine are pertty darn close...
Greg
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Christian Henry Tobler
Location: Oxford, CT Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Posts: 704
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Gavin Kisebach
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| Posted: Mon 11 Jun, 2007 7:31 pm Post subject: Re: Is SCA fighting similar to real fighting? |
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| Garrett L. Hammonds wrote: | I was just thinking on this the other day, i was wondering if there is any actual connection to real Western Martial Arts and SCA fighting or if it is just loosely based, if anyone knows anything about this please tell me!?!  |
One more note about this, and getting back to Garrett's original question. First of all now that I re-read it, it's very interesting that you refer to it as "real Western Martial Arts", and that may be an interesting discussion in and of itself. I took the question to mean is SCA fighting like real medieval combat, which is something completely different.
Is it good or bad that "Western Martial Arts" have become established in enough peoples minds that they are taken as being "real"?
In the best sense, I suppose this means that groups like ARMA and HEMA have done extensive research and testing of historic texts, and proven or disproven these texts to the point that they can be considered a reasonable facsimile of these fighting systems. Further, that those who have rediscovered these systems can comment authoritatively on what would or would not work in single combat.
In the worst sense, this might mean that the current thinking is "reality" and that the adherents of Western Martial Arts have it all figured out.
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Jean Henri Chandler
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| Posted: Mon 11 Jun, 2007 8:48 pm Post subject: Re: Is SCA fighting similar to real fighting? |
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| Gavin Kisebach wrote: |
In the best sense, I suppose this means that groups like ARMA and HEMA have done extensive research and testing of historic texts, and proven or disproven these texts to the point that they can be considered a reasonable facsimile of these fighting systems. Further, that those who have rediscovered these systems can comment authoritatively on what would or would not work in single combat.
In the worst sense, this might mean that the current thinking is "reality" and that the adherents of Western Martial Arts have it all figured out. |
HEMA is an acronym which means "Historical European Martial Arts", there are now hundreds of HEMA groups, probably ten or twenty large ones, mostly in North America and Europe. HEMA is used the same way as WMA and some other terms. Arguably it's more accurate for what we are talking about here since "Western Martial Arts" includes things like Savate, Boxing, Greco-Roman Wrestling, etc. etc.
ARMA is a HEMA group. Just like Greg Mele's group, or Schola Gladiatoria or Schola St. George or AEMMA, or Zornhau or Ochs or AZEA, or any one of several others.
I think what people are missing here, is that it's not that anyone is claiming to have a monopoly on any ancient medieval fighting skilz that they have figured out.
It's that, in the last decade or two, it has become apparent that several dozen fighting manuals were written back during the time when people were doing all the fighting. The original rediscovery of these was in part due to the re-enactors and SCA people themselves who dug this information up. It was also in large part due to Ewart Oakeshott's sword typology and the work of acaemic researchers like Sydney Anglo and Hank Rienhardt.
ARMA (then called HACA, another acronym) was one of the first groups to take these books seriously and attempt to put the principles into action as a real martial art. There are people on this board who could tell you much more about these early days, but basically in the late 90's a lot of people started seriously training for sword fighting based on the fechtbuchs. They have been successful in that, and now all the other groups are out there too.
It's not the HEMA people who have any special gift or insight about the books. It's that the Masters who wrote the books have insight into hand-to-hand combat. More than insight, they are direct step by step how to guides, in many cases quite explicit and pragmatic, on how to fight with staves, speas, swords, messers, poll-axes, daggers, and unarmed, according to techniques developed in Europe by the professional killers of the 13th, 14th, 15th, and 16th centuries.
The books are there for anyone to study, anyone who bothers to take a look at them in fact. Thats what really makes HEMA uniquely Western and unlike any other Martial Art, and it's one of the things i really like about it. it took some effort to get the basic idea initially, but the code has kind of been cracked now, at least on the basic level, and once you have that (and it's not hard to grasp now that there are some good interpreted manuals available) learning is just a matter of making the effort to train, study, and spar.
For some reason people seem to find this fact a bit jarring. Can it really be so simple? I'm no expert, but my answer would be "yes". It's certainly no harder to learn the basic principles of HEMA (enough to see a difference in your fighting) than it is to learn say, Akido. People seem to be astounded by this, probably because they don't get the fact that frankly, a lot of our understanding of history is pretty dim. It is rather amazing that these manuals were almost ignored (certainly left on a back bookshelf) for so many years, but you have to also remember that 'traditional' (i.e. Eastern) Martial Arts have only been as popular as they are now since the 70's, when Bruce lee re-introduced them to the world in initiating the wave of Kung Fu films.
Why re-enactors are so threatened by HEMA, I really can't understand. I would have thought it would be taken as a marvelous opportunity. There is some kind of disconnect going on. I think people are conflating the confidence HEMA people have in the ancient Masters, with some kind of smug assurance that we are somehow Masters. In a few special cases, there are some people who think that apparently, but the vast majority of HEMA practitioners see themselves as students. We have had a little taste, just a little, of how effective these Arts can be, and our respect for the Masters is profound. It's a fantastic gateway into our shared heritage, to me precisely what re-enactors are all about. I hope we can all get past this pointless animosity, and unite against our real enemy: Net Ninjas!! (just kidding)
Jean
Books and games on Medieval Europe Codex Integrum
Codex Guide to the Medieval Baltic Now available in print
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Robin Smith
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| Posted: Mon 11 Jun, 2007 9:34 pm Post subject: |
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Jean, I think the animosity is coming from the HEMA side just as much. Its a two way street. One side comes at the other saying "we have something to teach" without being willing to learn themselves. I know several people who fight in the SCA who have studied I.33 and though alot of it does translate, some simply does not translate. It would be like telling a boxer to study MMA because it'll help him. It might work in the octagon, or in a street fight, but its not gonna help him in the next bout, cause he can't grapple, strike below the belt, etc... But that doesn't mean the boxer is any less a fighter...
Plus many, myself included simply don't really do 13th-16th C. There simply are no surviving manuals from my period (the 11th C), so anything I did would be just as speculative as what is being done now...
A furore Normannorum libera nos, Domine
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