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Tom King




Location: florida
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PostPosted: Sun 24 Apr, 2011 4:31 pm    Post subject: Re: maul & spikes         Reply with quote

Jean-Carle Hudon wrote:
Danny's post shows a ''plommée'', which is a maul ( second to last link). The accompanying text states:
''Plommée, maillet de plomb garni ou non de pointes''.
maillet=maul
pointes=spikes.
So the picture posted by Frances isn't far off the mark as regards the spikes, but is lacking the proper maul head. It's as if the maul withered away, leaving just the spiked staff. Less utilitarian, but easier to manage as a weapon.


Couldn't spikes refer to a back fluke on the hammer head? The shaft would be the weakest part of the weapon, even with langets, and the maul head itself could do more damage than short spikes on the shaft. Pole arm power has been discussed most recently here (http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...highlight=)
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GG Osborne





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PostPosted: Sun 24 Apr, 2011 5:44 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Gentlemen....let me interject a question: "Why all the attempts to make the archer's maul a purposefully-designed weapon rather than just simply state it was a metal reinforced hammer?" I cannot see any reason at all to assume it is anything else than what it says it is by name...a large hammer. Occam's Razor would reason that a maul is what it just what it's name implies.

ETYMOLOGY:
Middle English malle, from Old French mail, from Latin malleus; see mel- in Indo-European roots.

Malleus is latin for hammer.

"Those who live by the sword...will usually die with a huge, unpaid credit card balance!"
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Dan Howard




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PostPosted: Sun 24 Apr, 2011 9:02 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It depends on the time period. Initially the maul was just that; a large squared-off wooden sledge-like hammer to bang in stakes. Over time it was modified to make it more useful as a weapon. The question is whether the weaponised version should still be classed as a maul.
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M Davis




Location: San Antonio, Tx.
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PostPosted: Sun 24 Apr, 2011 11:42 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm not sure about the degree to which archer's mauls became specialized for combat, but I am absolutely sure that if I were ordered to emplace several stakes in a location, my first question would be "Got a hammer?" A heavy maul/mallet was an essential tool for campaigns. Splitting wood (as previously mentioned), pitching tents, changing wheels, replacing wooden axles, etc. Even today, anyone who has spent much time camping probably either brings a mallet/hammer or profoundly regrets leaving it behind. The Entrenchment Tool issued by the U.S. military is specifically designed for digging and...hammering.

The idea that maul design trends went through phases, as Dan proposes, sounds reasonable I suppose. But if defensive tactics called for deployments of large spikes in quantity, then some sort of maul would still be necessary in addition to "archer's mauls" if their design had become too specialized for reliably handling the sorts of utilitarian jobs for which standard mauls were relied upon.

"Although walking is authorized, it is strongly discouraged."
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Kurt Scholz





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PostPosted: Mon 25 Apr, 2011 9:39 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

If you try to hammer stakes into the ground with heavy hammers, because light one handed versions don't develop enough energy, you will perhaps discover some things, just like me.
If the hammerhead is small it's quite possible that you damage the stake. As a result it doesn't go down as deep as you want. So I would favour a broad head for that purpose, especially if I have to work under conditions that make me nervous.
If you swing the hammer with two hands you need someone to hold the stake, so only 50% of the people involved need a hammer.

Considering things on a theoretical level, it would make sense to me to have lead integrated for weight, hard wood for forming a cheap, but durable, hammerhead and an iron surface to make it last even longer because the pressure is more even distributed on the wood. That's cheap and pretty low tech for such a tool.
However, you just need one side of this hammer to hammer down stakes. The other side can serve whatever purpose you consider beneficial, like another side for hammering or mounting a spike, a blade or a hook. Personally, if I was an archer in these days, I would opt for a narrow blade. It makes a nice tool to chop wood and it should still be narrow and strong enough to damage armour. No, it doesn't have to break it, just causing a nasty trauma.

This reminds me about the loaded stick, called shillelagh, used in Ireland. Such an item could easily be carried by anybody and would serve quite nicely to hit someone hard, although you should use a bigger size against plate armour.
In a museum in Romania they had lots of very simple wooden clubs next to swords and yatagans as examples of medieval weapons used in warfare in this region, but I'm not very sure about the correctness of the reconstruction.

M Davis wrote:
Even today, anyone who has spent much time camping probably either brings a mallet/hammer or profoundly regrets leaving it behind.
You can use an axe with a flat butt for that purpose. :P
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Johan Gemvik




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PostPosted: Mon 25 Apr, 2011 5:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

David Sutton wrote:
Another use of the maul, which has occurred to me, might be to strike the flattened end of a ballock dagger, in a hammer and chisel fashion to penetrate the helmet of a disabled man-at-arms. I'm not sure of the plausibility of my last point (I don't know if it has been postulated before, or is a well known theory etc), could a ballock dagger be used in such a fashion? Would the blade stand this?


I've tried it with a small slegehammer and my Tods stuff kit bullock dagger. It worked like a charm both on riveted maille and failry heavy plate, but the bullock dagger needs a back cap that can take the blow otherwise you're likely to splinter the handle. On mine it just loosened the brass back cap a little so I needed to do a slight re-peening to get it tight again.
Of course, no one was wearing the armour at the time. Wink

I think this would also work with the pommel of a sword. Or a heavy stone. Or a heavy duty buckler...

"The Dwarf sees farther than the Giant when he has the giant's shoulder to mount on" -Coleridge


Last edited by Johan Gemvik on Mon 25 Apr, 2011 5:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Johan Gemvik




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PostPosted: Mon 25 Apr, 2011 5:06 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dan Howard wrote:
It depends on the time period. Initially the maul was just that; a large squared-off wooden sledge-like hammer to bang in stakes. Over time it was modified to make it more useful as a weapon. The question is whether the weaponised version should still be classed as a maul.


"Maul of War" would do I guess. But surely there has to be some fancy name given to it somewhere at some point in history. Wink

"The Dwarf sees farther than the Giant when he has the giant's shoulder to mount on" -Coleridge
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M Davis




Location: San Antonio, Tx.
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PostPosted: Mon 25 Apr, 2011 7:25 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Kurt Scholz wrote:
If you try to hammer stakes into the ground with heavy hammers, because light one handed versions don't develop enough energy, you will perhaps discover some things, just like me.
If the hammerhead is small it's quite possible that you damage the stake. As a result it doesn't go down as deep as you want. So I would favour a broad head for that purpose, especially if I have to work under conditions that make me nervous.
If you swing the hammer with two hands you need someone to hold the stake, so only 50% of the people involved need a hammer.


I was thinking about this as well. Depending on how different tasks are assigned, you could adjust that figure up or down. I can see pros and cons for both higher and lower percentage allocation.

Quote:

Considering things on a theoretical level, it would make sense to me to have lead integrated for weight, hard wood for forming a cheap, but durable, hammerhead and an iron surface to make it last even longer because the pressure is more even distributed on the wood. That's cheap and pretty low tech for such a tool.
However, you just need one side of this hammer to hammer down stakes. The other side can serve whatever purpose you consider beneficial, like another side for hammering or mounting a spike, a blade or a hook. Personally, if I was an archer in these days, I would opt for a narrow blade. It makes a nice tool to chop wood and it should still be narrow and strong enough to damage armour. No, it doesn't have to break it, just causing a nasty trauma.


I agree about the value of an opposing spike/axe blade, or what have you. Judging by the comparatively simple design-description in the original post, the person who authorized and requisitioned that order was almost certainly aware of the age-old truism that as soon as you give a piece of equipment to a soldier, he will find a way to break it. Failing that, he will lose it. "Cheap, Simple, Replaceable" has its place in military logistics.

Quote:

This reminds me about the loaded stick, called shillelagh, used in Ireland. Such an item could easily be carried by anybody and would serve quite nicely to hit someone hard, although you should use a bigger size against plate armour.
In a museum in Romania they had lots of very simple wooden clubs next to swords and yatagans as examples of medieval weapons used in warfare in this region, but I'm not very sure about the correctness of the reconstruction.


I've seen some contention as to the historical accuracy of shillelaghs(on this forum, if I recall correctly), at least as the modern public imagines them. But I can definitely imagine bored soldiers creating their own makeshift mauls, clubs, or any other tool or weapon for that matter, if the need arose, the resources were available, and the needed item's manufacture required a familiar skill-set, an easily-available skill-set, or no real particular skill-set at all. Bored soldiers can work wonders. I wouldn't bat an eye if I found out the Roman Empire's infrastructure actually started when some ridiculously bored soldier looked up at some of his buddies and said something like:

"Hey, how much you guys wanna bet I can build a road..."

M Davis wrote:
Even today, anyone who has spent much time camping probably either brings a mallet/hammer or profoundly regrets leaving it behind.

Quote:
You can use an axe with a flat butt for that purpose. :P


Touche', Internet Stranger. Touche'.

"Although walking is authorized, it is strongly discouraged."
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Kurt Scholz





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PostPosted: Tue 26 Apr, 2011 4:36 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I've always been wondering why the English archers in the 100 Years War are supposed to have driven single stakes into the ground and got them pointy on the other end afterwards. This seems a lot more work to me than fixing a few cheval à frise to the ground with stakes that don't have a pointed end and just hold the cheval in place. I consider such a "horse" more difficult to cross on foot or mounted and faster to set up. The different components can also be transported along disassembled, giving each man a share, and serve multiple purposes like an enclosure for expensive mounts, a makeshift manger (with the not so pointy ends upwards) or a defence of the camp at night. This way you only have to replace the stakes driven into the ground, while otherwise you have to search for lots of suitable wood in short time. As stakes driven into the ground you can use almost anything by felling a tree and splitting it with wedges into lots of suitable pieces. So you would need few axes and few mauls to build a defence.
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William P




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PostPosted: Sun 22 May, 2011 4:41 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

one image that sticks in my mind is from 'conquest - wierd weapons of the middle ages' introducing the bec de corbain it shoows a longbowman in a field, hammering at a stake, with a plate armoured (early 1400's. ) approaching from behind on foot th archer sneaks a look behind him, and just as the knigh approaches, the archer suddenly turns around and whacks him in the head with his hammer, which is the 2 handed variety with a rasonably sized head. but just a simple block of wood about 2/3 the size of the archers head. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuocXJrjZ_U&feature=related

that said im not ptting very much aith in that show, when dealing with maille armour they use butted mail since they tear a shirt to shreds. and show the godendag as bieng more a spiked club not unlike a oversized mace head, as opposed to a simple long club with a single spike up the top.
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Craig Peters




PostPosted: Mon 23 May, 2011 10:06 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I know that the time period is not even remotely close to being right, but I thought you might be interested in an early Bronze Age maul that was discovered at a battle site. You can see a photo in my thread over here: http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=23174
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Martin Peter Forrester





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PostPosted: Tue 08 May, 2012 3:54 pm    Post subject: Maul         Reply with quote

Has anybody actually found a period source which suggests that a maul had spikes? If so i've missed it. It may be just a question of terminology, but it seems to me that many of the wierd and wonderful whomping sticks sold as archer's mauls are probably maces or holy water sprinklers, if they existed at all.
"Bravery is of greater value than numbers" Vegitius, 4c
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Ryan S.




Location: Germany
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PostPosted: Tue 08 May, 2012 10:56 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

if it had a spike, wouldn't it just be a war hammer?
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Benjamin H. Abbott




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PostPosted: Tue 08 May, 2012 11:31 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Writing in the second half of the sixteenth century, Henry Barrett wanted archers to have "a maule of leade with a pyke of five inches longe, well stieled, sett in a staff of fyve foote of lengthe."
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Brad Harada




PostPosted: Wed 09 May, 2012 3:18 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Rather than the traditional hammer design, might I suggest that the "archer's maul" perhaps more resembled a large baseball bat, much like a wood carving/stone mason's mallet, the head being reinforced with iron bands which would also lend weight to the striking end. The "spikes" might have been nothing more than rivet heads protruding from the bands. Such a design would easily lend itself to having flat planed faces, extending to the "grip" or handle to orient proper strikes for driving stakes. While to my knowledge no historical examples exist, round wood mallets have been around for a long time; some even bear resemblance to a short mace.
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Benjamin H. Abbott




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PostPosted: Wed 09 May, 2012 9:16 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Barrett's five-inch "pyke" was almost certainly a top spike used for thrusting.
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Ryan S.




Location: Germany
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PostPosted: Wed 09 May, 2012 9:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

There does seem a lot of various things all being called mauls, from metal studded clubs to war hammers. Although I don't think "bound with lead" is the same as studded. here is a blogger you has compiled various references to the maul and lead mallets. He even has links to pictures of them. Such as this one of French Maillotins

I did find a place that sells an archer's maul that is a studded club, http://www.todsstuff.co.uk/theenglishcutler/m....htm#thumb it does not say where he got his information on it, and can find no collaborating information. So I wonder, was any such weapon even used in Europe, and if so what was it called?
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