[Joe M.]

I have been soooo tempted for years to get a chain mail shirt that I can use for both a Roman and a Viking wardrobe. However, it's hard to spend so much money on a "shirt" you can't even try on before you buy! I'd love any and all intelligent recommendations on good manufacturers (as well as those to perhaps avoid), and also the pros and cons of the various types (butted, rivetted, etc.). As with all my swords and armor, I'm always happily willing to spend much more $$ if I am confident that the quality and craftsmanship is great, and the hard-working artisan/s well-respected.
Also, tips on proper care of chain mail would be very appreciated - you know, advice from lessons learned the "hard way". I have guns, swords, and armor and am very good about keeping them well-oiled and spotless. However, what's the best way to *store* chain mail? Rolled up in goop? Also, can you ever really get enough of the oil off so that you don't ruin the clothes you wear with it? And finally, so many of the really good oils I've used say something to the effect of: "Warning - contains solvents and research has proven prolonged contact with skin will cause brain damage". Not exactly the kind of thing I want to be wearing all day, knowing my shirt's been soaked in it for months!

[Allan Senefelder]

Wheater you buy riveted or abutted I would suggest that the shirt is made from either Galvinized or stainless steel wire .
Alot of the maille comming out of India is made from whats called black iron wire . Black iron is steel wire the is
straight from the wire drwaer onto the spool and is covered is soot/scale and rusts easily . They tend to come packed in co
cosmoline and as soon as you clean it off the item will begin to rust without treatment . Galvinized is much less prone
to do so ( galvinizing is the process of boning a layer of zinc to the outside of steel . this is not the same as dipping
where the steel is literally dunked in zinc and allowed to dry . this treatment like plating will wear away with regular
use ) or stainless which is next to impossible to get to rust . Stainless maille tends to be expensive because the
wire is more expensive ( about three times more than galvinized ) . Stainless steel is steel with a small amount
of chromium in it which also makes it harder . The process of galvinization also increases the tensile strength
of steel a little bit .Its not as hard as stainless though . Riveted maille is the most expensive for the most part
and the most period accurate . Its helpfull if you have access to the maille maker to fix any rends or tears the
develope through use ( if you don't know maille making youself ) . Maille is pretty low maintenance if its made from
galvinized or stainless steel( one thing with stainless . it is very shiney and does not tarnish with age so it
you will always look a bit of the great white knight ) . Theres no inside or out side to maille garments and they
don't wrinkle so you can pretty much toss them in a corner and forget about them till you need them again .
As mentioned earlier if you go the India blackiron route you will need to keep the item treated and will have to
do so after each use as persperation will make them rust . I hope theres something usefull here for you .

[David Quivey]

If you're going for the truely authentic look, I'd say check out Erik Schmid's website > http://www.erikdschmid.com/EDS_1.htm
Even if you don't buy anything, he has some good articles in his research library, including some roman examples.

[Shane Smith]

If you want maille for actual wear and use in rigorous training,butted maille is not to be considered in my opinion. I have cut/ripped right through a hauberk of butted maille during test cutting.The maille's links just spread open and allow the blade to pass. On the other hand,I have never seen even cheap riveted maille over a gambeson or batted cloth armor fail to a significant degree when struck with the swords edge.A thrust with a tapered blade is another matter however. Don't buy butted.Trust me.

[Allan Senefelder]

Maille butted or riveted needs to be on a body over a gamboison to perform properly . There's story from the era of
the conquista of South America ( i appologise i cannot remeber which expedition ) of the Conquistadors making fun
of the flint tipped arrows that they're indian allies used . The indians felt they worked just fine so they hung a
maille shirt from a tree and the indians loosed thier arrows at it . The flint tipped arrows passed through the shirt .
Butted maille was in use throughout Indo-persia up untill almost the end of the 19th century . It does not have the durability of riveted maille but does offer in the modern context the user the ability to repair thier own maille
if they grasp the pattern . Nothing more than two pair of pliers and some rings are required . With riveted maille
( for an great example of the effects of a sword stroke on riveted maille see Arms In Action /Maille and Plate
Armour by the Tower Armouries ) there is considerably more tooling neccesary to repair the piece if/when a rend
does develope . It comes down to I think more the application the user is going to put the garment to and thier
willingness/ability to make ones own repairs . From a pure historical accuracy perspective for Western Europe
riveted maille was the standard .

[Joe M.]

Thanks for the detailed and intelligent replies thus far. I have only been registered with this site for about 15 hours or so, but I really enjoy it. Genreally, I avoid "Forums" like the plague because experience has shown me that they are dominated by the most ignorant people on earth and full of snide remarks, not intelligent responses!

The entries all over this site make great reading, and I have yet to find myself annoyed. Maybe that's because all of the boneheads who tried to infiltrate this website have already been used for "testing"...........

[Patrick Kelly]

[Shane Smith]

I actually repair my own riveted maille.I use a piece of ceiling-tie wire of appropriate diameter (I'm a commercial construction guy) which is not heat-treated as a matter of course as far as my experience has shown me.I spin a loop around a mandrel of the right diameter and then I cut the link.I then flatten the ends of the link on my vise with the ends lapped to insure a good interface.I then drill a 1/16" hole through both ends and then lock the new link into the weave where the damage is.I then cut a rivet about 1/8" long from small diameter mild wire to finish the job.I simply peen one end on my vice before inserting the now headed rivet through the holes in the maille link.Peen the other end on the vice and I'm done.It takes about as long to do as explain so it's not really all that difficult once you've done a repair or two.

[Allan Senefelder]

I've used a small piece of square rod to flatten the ends struck with a hammer so its like a little press.
What do you do using the vice just haul on the screw arm and flatten them using pressure from the vice
faces ?

[Bob Klassen]

I found a sizing chart online that may help you buy a hauberk without trying it on first, here's the link.
http://dcwireworks.com/size.html
I hope it helps!
Bob

[Steven E. Sheldon]

"Theres no inside or out side to maille garments..."

In fact, with maille garments constructed using "wedge" rivets, there is indeed an inside and an outside to the garment. All the rivet points are pointing in the same direction, and those points should be worn pointing away from the wearer, so as to maximize comfort and minimize wear and tear on the wearer and his clothing.

Prior to setting rivet:



After setting rivet:



Steve


[/img]

[Allan Senefelder]

I stand corrected Steve . I was reffering to butted maille and should have made note of it when I
made the comment . Butted is what we sell at faire and " theres no inside or outside " is part of the
shpiel when talking to customers .I guess i've said it so much its automatic .

[Jonathon Janusz]

i agree with the above, historical accuracy dictates rivetted. note however that price goes considerably higher when moving up from butted to rivetted. as far as materials used go, some thoughts:

if this is meant to be as accurate a piece as possible, galvanized is a decent choice but i would really recommend to use plain old mild steel. obviously maintenance [oil and rust] issues will arise

if you are looking for the strongest shirt possible [for recreational swordplay or test cutting] most of my research has pointed to stainless steel as a good recommendation. it keeps a shine very well, minimal maintenance, very strong, but a little on the heavy side compared to galvanized [not drastically so, but noticable]. this is what you will see when visiting a slaughter house, some butcher shops, and shark tanks [also has the advantage of being the most easily kept sanitary]rivetted will still give you the best results.

if this is meant to be a costume piece or meant for theatrical or stage fighting, my recommendation is a slightly heavier gauge rivetted aluminum - patinas to a dull grey similar to mild steel [and stays that way], rust is a non-issue, no worries about oiling or damaging skin/clothes/etc., and it is no where near as heavy. the difference between stainless and aluminum is nearly half the weight - great for fast, flashy stage fighting or having to be in it for what sometimes feels like days at a time. i specify a heavy gauge aluminum because it can be the weakest of the metals discussed and for the benefits in weight a little more metal should comfortably keep most errant half-speed stage blows aside.

as far as trying on before you buy, remember that maile expands horizontally a great deal [my hauberk that measures approx. 18 inches across with the links completely closed can expand to nearly 27 inches - making a diameter of 54!] the only things you lose in the equation are length [gets shorter the wider it expands] and protective capability [wider expansion = bigger holes = greater tension per link -> easier to shear/cut/thrust through]. so, as long as you're choice in shirt is in the ball park of your measurements it should fit fine - it just may be a bit longer or shorter than advertised. again note that a proper fit suggests that the links stay for the most part uniformly and tightly closed - maintaining protective capacity. the best advantage [in my opinion] to a proper fitting shirt is again weight and wear; an undersized shirt doesn't protect as well and can become restrictive of movement, an oversized shirt uses more links than necessary and adds more weight than absolutely needs to be there causing quicker fatigue in a field where speed was often the difference between life and death.

sorry for the sermon, but heres my $.02.

btw: i don't mean to stir a hornet's nest here, but 45 degree sleeves or 90?

[Jonathon Janusz]

one more thing i almost forgot - to anybody interested in making the stuff as a hobby:

if you have not the tools/materials/skills/etc. to wind, cut, etc. your own links nor the forearm strength to butt rings together for any length of time and don't mind fudging a little historical accuracy. . .

i made my hauberk last year using stainless steel split rings [like your keychain only smaller] and a split ring pliers [bought for three bucks at the local sporting goods store in the fishing section - they are used to make lures] to make a very nice, very durable shirt. looks like king's maile from a distance, had few of the armorers at the local faire dumbfounded as to how i did it, completed my project in about four months working for about two hours a day with a few weeks worth of breaks between [approx. 12,000 links for any who are wondering], and the whole project cost me less than $250.

word of caution: take good care of your hands and stretch/rest your fingers often to avoid repetitive stress, but it is a lot less taxing on the body than doing butted. and buy your rings in bulk from the manufacturer - http://www.worthco.com for the best price!

the only thing that makes me mad is that the only thing that was stopping me from starting the Japanese armoring project in my head was that kusari [Japanese maile] patterns use flattened or oval links. . . Worth just started producing oval split rings. . . i told my fingers i would not do this to them again for at least a year. . .

[Nathan Robinson]

Steven-
Thanks for posting that. The flattened rings and wedge rivets look absolutely stunning.

I want.

[Allan Senefelder]

Jonathon brought up good point about sizing . Because maille is basically a fabric of holes its
very forgiving when it comes to size . The standard haubergone we make fits me in my arming coat ( 5'10''
about 167lbs) but we've had the same shirt on a guy who was 6'4'' and had to be 240lbs or so ( it did take
two guys to get him back out ) . Its very forgiving stuff in that respect . That being said a maille shirt should
be at least as wide as the widest point its got to pass over to be wore on you . For most folks this will be
the shoulders .

[Jeremy V. Krause]

Just a comment on Erick Schmid,
His mail/hauberks are maybe the best in the world in terms of authenticity and craftsmanship. Unfortunately it would be a very long time before I am in a position to buy one made by him. Maybe never- I am a social worker after all!

[Gordon Clark]

[Jeremy V. Krause]

Hello Gordon,
Thanks for the site. His stuff does look good but I still have a problem, one with expense may force me to concede. Forth Armoury makes their maile of high carbon steel, but Mr. Schmid makes his of pure iron, or for the VERY most authentic wrought iron. These are much closer to the historical materials. So, and this question is for everybody, In terms of apperance is there a difference between pure iron, wrought iron, and carbon steel hauberks. On a side not- I don't know why anyone would buy stainless steel mail! Thanks, Jeremy

[Allan Senefelder]

As long as the higher carbon content steel hasn't gone through any surface treatment I would guess that all three
will end up rusting/tarnishing fairly similar . Maille was still made from iron wire even after steel became widely available
for two principle reasons ,first iron was cheaper and second you didn't have to anneal iron wire to soften it for
the flatten the ends/punch the holes part of the manufacturing proccess. I'm not into the great white knight thing
so i'm not big on stainless myself but from a weight standpoint you can make a maille garment from a thinner
stainless wire thus saving on weight carried because of it higher tensile strength due to the chromium in it .