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Vincent Le Chevalier
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 Posted: Fri 02 Nov, 2007 3:00 am Post subject: |
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| Michael Edelson wrote: | | However, I'm trying to evaluate Randal Graham's theory of harmonic "deadness"...the idea that swords like kats, that are thick and have soft steel or even iron cores vibrate so much less on impact that it gives them a significant power advantage over spring hardened swords. So far, my exprience has been that nihonto (real Japanese katanas) cut better than any longsword I've ever used, but I'd like to know why. I like Randal's theory, but I'd like to gather some more data. |
I do not really think vibrations are that big of problem in terms of energy. Of course I do not have real data, but an estimation is possible.
Let's say both sword weigh about 1kg, and about a third of this mass is actually hitting the target. I think saying that the part of the sword that does the cutting travels at 10m/s is not overly optimistic. So the target is hit by a kinetic energy of about 1/2 * 0.3 * 10^2, that is 15J.
Now, storing even 1J of energy in vibrations is not so easy. My simulations of a type XI by Angus Trim show that an amplitude of 8cm at the tip is just enough for 1J. It is still an order of magnitude smaller... I doubt the energy stored in vibrations could become all that significant. If it became so I would blame edge alignement...
My own very limited experience of cutting tells me that the vibrating blade mostly prevents the "bite" of the edge, maybe even making the sword bounce away. Mostly on hard targets, and not cutting at the CoP. Using the right technique for the right target, it should not be a problem.
I have never cut with a katana, nor with a longsword... But there could be something different in the mass repartition that makes the katana more suited to what you try. I wonder if the form of the cut is altered significantly, in your case, between katana and longsword? Also accounting for the curvature...
In fact, a good way to figure this out would be to try with something shaped and balanced like a katana, but spring-tempered...
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Vincent
Ensis Sub Caelo
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J F. McBrayer
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| Posted: Fri 02 Nov, 2007 6:48 am Post subject: |
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Testing with other types of thick-backed single-edged sword would probably be useful as well. A backsword, a sabre, and a kriegsmesser all share that feature, but are different in others (curvature, handedness) that might be relevant.
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Michael Edelson
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| Posted: Fri 02 Nov, 2007 8:37 am Post subject: |
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| Vincent Le Chevalier wrote: | | Now, storing even 1J of energy in vibrations is not so easy. My simulations of a type XI by Angus Trim show that an amplitude of 8cm at the tip is just enough for 1J. It is still an order of magnitude smaller... I doubt the energy stored in vibrations could become all that significant. If it became so I would blame edge alignement... |
What about bending? Stop motion pictures of people cutting tatami with longswords, including one posted a while back by Angus Trim, show the sword bending significantly in a cut. From my own experience with swords bending, there is always a degree of twist.
You mentioned edge alignment...well what if your edge alignment is perfect, but the twist of the sword alters the alignment? How much energy could be lost then?
| Quote: | | I have never cut with a katana, nor with a longsword... But there could be something different in the mass repartition that makes the katana more suited to what you try. I wonder if the form of the cut is altered significantly, in your case, between katana and longsword? Also accounting for the curvature... |
There is something to that. I have a JSA background, and so most of my cutting of 3 or 4 mat rolls was done in the past, using Japanese technique. I haven't tried anything like that recently.
In the last five years, I haven't done anything with a katana except occasional cutting for comparison's sake. I'm in the HES camp now, and so I cut with the katana the way I do with the longsword...same technique...because the longsword is all I practice with these days...however, there is an undeniable Japanese influence in the way I cut.
Using the exact same cutting technique in a recent test, the differences between longsword and katana were dramatic.
This is what my gendaito did to a 30 layer jack:
This is what my Brescia Spadona did to a 20 layer jack (it only cut halfway through a 30 layer jack).
| Quote: | | In fact, a good way to figure this out would be to try with something shaped and balanced like a katana, but spring-tempered... |
Indeed. I will soon have the opportunity to test an Albion Knecht, so that should be interesting.
New York Historical Fencing Association
www.newyorklongsword.com
Byakkokan Dojo
http://newyorkbattodo.com/
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Michael Edelson
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| Posted: Fri 02 Nov, 2007 8:40 am Post subject: |
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| J F. McBrayer wrote: | | Testing with other types of thick-backed single-edged sword would probably be useful as well. A backsword, a sabre, and a kriegsmesser all share that feature, but are different in others (curvature, handedness) that might be relevant. |
Unfortunately I am only qualified to test the two handed variants. I am not so good at cutting with one handed swords. However, as I mentioned, our group will soon have an Albion Knecht kriegsmesser, so I might be able to do some testing with that.
I still have those jack samples, and I'm waiting for the messer.
New York Historical Fencing Association
www.newyorklongsword.com
Byakkokan Dojo
http://newyorkbattodo.com/
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Michael Ahrens
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| Posted: Fri 02 Nov, 2007 9:22 am Post subject: |
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| Michael Edelson wrote: | | J F. McBrayer wrote: | | Testing with other types of thick-backed single-edged sword would probably be useful as well. A backsword, a sabre, and a kriegsmesser all share that feature, but are different in others (curvature, handedness) that might be relevant. |
Unfortunately I am only qualified to test the two handed variants. I am not so good at cutting with one handed swords. However, as I mentioned, our group will soon have an Albion Knecht kriegsmesser, so I might be able to do some testing with that.
I still have those jack samples, and I'm waiting for the messer. |
Michael
unless you ordered a Knecht, how will you be able to test it.
And if Mike Sigman is reading this, Where is my Knecht.
Mike Ahrens
http://www.selohaar.org/
Staten Island German Martial Arts (S.I.G.M.A.)
http://www.sigmanewyork.webs.com/
Member of the 1st Universal Church of St. John Cantius Garand, Reformed (Gas Port)
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Michael Edelson
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| Posted: Fri 02 Nov, 2007 9:33 am Post subject: |
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| Michael Ahrens wrote: | | Michael Edelson wrote: | | J F. McBrayer wrote: | | Testing with other types of thick-backed single-edged sword would probably be useful as well. A backsword, a sabre, and a kriegsmesser all share that feature, but are different in others (curvature, handedness) that might be relevant. |
Unfortunately I am only qualified to test the two handed variants. I am not so good at cutting with one handed swords. However, as I mentioned, our group will soon have an Albion Knecht kriegsmesser, so I might be able to do some testing with that.
I still have those jack samples, and I'm waiting for the messer. |
Michael
unless you ordered a Knecht, how will you be able to test it.
And if Mike Sigman is reading this, Where is my Knecht. |
It's very simple. I will test yours, or I will train you wrong as a joke. You know how it goes. Now stop messing with my topic. 
New York Historical Fencing Association
www.newyorklongsword.com
Byakkokan Dojo
http://newyorkbattodo.com/
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Benjamin H. Abbott
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| Posted: Fri 02 Nov, 2007 10:11 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | You can take a fairly dull blade and extend your arms full length and use nothing but a push-pull motion of your hands to strike with *more* than enough force to cleave a skull, not even using your arms or hips, etc., just your hands. |
Is that true? Perhaps with a longsword, but I've read numerous accounts of sword cuts to the head failing to stop. It also depends what you mean by cleave. Light penetration of brain often causes little immediate effect, and even deep penetration might not be enough. Because of this, I believe cutting performance absolutely matters. The old masters struck downright blows for a reason. If someone were trying to kill me, I wouldn't bet on anything other than a full wrath cut to put him down instantly.
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Vincent Le Chevalier
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| Posted: Fri 02 Nov, 2007 10:56 am Post subject: |
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| Michael Edelson wrote: | What about bending? Stop motion pictures of people cutting tatami with longswords, including one posted a while back by Angus Trim, show the sword bending significantly in a cut. From my own experience with swords bending, there is always a degree of twist.
You mentioned edge alignment...well what if your edge alignment is perfect, but the twist of the sword alters the alignment? How much energy could be lost then? |
In any case, the energy stored in the sword is purely a function of its deformation and its stiffness. There is only so much that can be said for the general case, because the stiffness of all the swords you are trying to compare varies quite a lot, I think. Nevertheless, my personal belief is that the energy stored in the sword's deformation is minimal relative to the kinetic energy that strikes the target.
If, as you say, the bending/twisting of the sword alters edge alignment, the sword will not cut as deeply, but some of the energy will show up as blunt trauma instead of depth of cut. Or in the worst case, it will just move the target, or make the sword bounce back. But I don't think a significant amount is stored and dissipated in the vibrations.
What differences did you feel yourself, when you did your cuts against the jack? Did the longsword bounce back, or did it just remain stuck in the jack, less deep?
| Michael Edelson wrote: | | Quote: | | I have never cut with a katana, nor with a longsword... But there could be something different in the mass repartition that makes the katana more suited to what you try. I wonder if the form of the cut is altered significantly, in your case, between katana and longsword? Also accounting for the curvature... |
There is something to that. I have a JSA background, and so most of my cutting of 3 or 4 mat rolls was done in the past, using Japanese technique. I haven't tried anything like that recently. |
It will be difficult to know for sure... Personaly I decided not to practice longsword because I know that my JSA training would surely show up and perhaps alter some techniques.
The curvature of the katana, on any impact, adds a slicing action to whatever slice your personal technique may have, a bit in the same way a guillotine blade does. Perhaps against targets that are very sensitive to slice, it would make a significant difference. Jacks could be very sensitive to this slicing motion. In that case the longsword wielder would have to alter the technique to add some slice, which is maybe not so easy...
And then there is the edge profile which is not necessarily the same, and the handle that can favour one sword or the other depending on what the wielder prefers, and so on and so forth... But in my opinion vibration is a last factor.
All this being why I largely gave up doing anything theoretical about impacts and cuts  Waaaay too many things to figure, and a large portion depends on the target and on the user...
I'm not saying the difference you see is not real. Could it also be because longswords were designed to solve a different problem than just cutting deep?
Regards,
--
Vincent
Ensis Sub Caelo
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Michael Edelson
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| Posted: Fri 02 Nov, 2007 11:13 am Post subject: |
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| Vincent Le Chevalier wrote: | | If, as you say, the bending/twisting of the sword alters edge alignment, the sword will not cut as deeply, but some of the energy will show up as blunt trauma instead of depth of cut. Or in the worst case, it will just move the target, or make the sword bounce back. But I don't think a significant amount is stored and dissipated in the vibrations. |
This describes my observations with tatami quite well. This is a subtle thing, mind you, but the sword seem to bash its way through the mat rather than cut. Again..very subtle. The lonsgwords cut the mats quite well, and I was able to pull off some combo cuts, but the katana made it seem a lot easier.
| Quote: | | What differences did you feel yourself, when you did your cuts against the jack? Did the longsword bounce back, or did it just remain stuck in the jack, less deep? |
I use a slicing motion in all of my cuts, so there was no bouncing back...the only thing I felt was that the kat bit more deeply.
| Quote: | | It will be difficult to know for sure... Personaly I decided not to practice longsword because I know that my JSA training would surely show up and perhaps alter some techniques. |
Maybe for the better, though. There is no fechtbuch that describes the mechanics of cutting, and draw cuts work well for both sword types.
| Quote: | | And then there is the edge profile which is not necessarily the same, and the handle that can favour one sword or the other depending on what the wielder prefers, and so on and so forth... But in my opinion vibration is a last factor. |
With the jack, I would agree...I perieved no vibrations in the cut, possibly because the medium absorbed them. However, with tatami, I felt the vibrations.
| Quote: | | I'm not saying the difference you see is not real. Could it also be because longswords were designed to solve a different problem than just cutting deep? |
Oh, no doubt. The only thing I'm trying to figure out is to what exent lack of vibration affects the cut...Randal Graham said he can make a longsword that is harmonically dead...or at least close to it, so I'd be curious to see how much of an effect that would have.
To me, vibrations *seem* to have a big effect. My experience cutting with modern production kats, like Hanwei or Dynasty Forge, which actually do vibrate (though not as much as longswords becasue of their thickness), is that they do not cut nearly as well as the real deal. But of course there could be other factors.
New York Historical Fencing Association
www.newyorklongsword.com
Byakkokan Dojo
http://newyorkbattodo.com/
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Robin Smith
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| Posted: Fri 02 Nov, 2007 11:16 am Post subject: |
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| Vincent Le Chevalier wrote: | | The curvature of the katana, on any impact, adds a slicing action to whatever slice your personal technique may have, a bit in the same way a guillotine blade does. Perhaps against targets that are very sensitive to slice, it would make a significant difference. Jacks could be very sensitive to this slicing motion. In that case the longsword wielder would have to alter the technique to add some slice, which is maybe not so easy... |
I think this is almost certainly the culprit. The curvature of the katana makes any cut have a slicing action not present in a straight blade, even if the cutters technique is the same. Think about kevlar. If you try to chop kevlar it won't work, but if you bring out a knife it cuts easily.
I think "harmonic deadness" is significantly less responsible for the results than edge geometry and blade curvature. I'm not saying its wholly insignificant, but its more likely a tertiary factor. The fact of the matter is that the type XVa is really a jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none design. Because it was designed as a compromise between thrust and cut, it simply will not be able to compete with a more specialized cutting blade like the katana in a cutting test designed for the katana...
Plus, lets not forget that many people, including our own Lancelot Chan, Gus, Jean Henri Chandler, etc... have not reported having any problem cutting mats and even heavier targets with their longswords...
A furore Normannorum libera nos, Domine
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Michael Edelson
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| Posted: Fri 02 Nov, 2007 11:37 am Post subject: |
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| Robin Smith wrote: | | Vincent Le Chevalier wrote: | | The curvature of the katana, on any impact, adds a slicing action to whatever slice your personal technique may have, a bit in the same way a guillotine blade does. Perhaps against targets that are very sensitive to slice, it would make a significant difference. Jacks could be very sensitive to this slicing motion. In that case the longsword wielder would have to alter the technique to add some slice, which is maybe not so easy... |
I think this is almost certainly the culprit. The curvature of the katana makes any cut have a slicing action not present in a straight blade, even if the cutters technique is the same. Think about kevlar. If you try to chop kevlar it won't work, but if you bring out a knife it cuts easily.
I think "harmonic deadness" is significantly less responsible for the results than edge geometry and blade curvature. I'm not saying its wholly insignificant, but its more likely a tertiary factor. The fact of the matter is that the type XVa is really a jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none design. Because it was designed as a compromise between thrust and cut, it simply will not be able to compete with a more specialized cutting blade like the katana in a cutting test designed for the katana...
Plus, lets not forget that many people, including our own Lancelot Chan, Gus, Jean Henri Chandler, etc... have not reported having any problem cutting mats and even heavier targets with their longswords... |
Hi Robin,
For the sake of clarity, I have to stress that I did not, and do not, have any problems cutting mats with any of my lonsgwords. In fact had I not cut on the same day with a katana, I would also not have "reported any problems". The Albion Brescia spadona, which Lance cuts with quite a bit, is a particularly good example of a longsword that is an excellent cutter and makes short work of tatami mats...but still not as good as my kat.
What I'm reporting is a comparison of cutting ability as I percieve it, the cause of which I am trying to determine.
Also, I'd like to point out that a katana, specificall my Emura, has no problems thrusting into a 30 layer jack, which it can actually do without halfswording. So I wouldn't rule out the fact that a katana was also designed for both the cut and the thrust.
New York Historical Fencing Association
www.newyorklongsword.com
Byakkokan Dojo
http://newyorkbattodo.com/
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Michael Edelson
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| Posted: Fri 02 Nov, 2007 11:59 am Post subject: |
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| Robin Smith wrote: | | I think "harmonic deadness" is significantly less responsible for the results than edge geometry and blade curvature. |
I'm starting to agree...both because of Vincent's math and also from watching our cutting videos and seeing how effortlessly Mike Ahrens cut the matts with his Cold Steel grossemesser, which is of course a spring tempered blade.
That messer is stiff as a board, though, so at least flexibility is still in the game.
However, what's interesting to me now is that fact that my gendaito cuts better than even my old Wind and Thunder, which was a heavier sword, just as sharp and also curved. The W&T vibrated a lot...the gendaito is dead.
So perhaps HD does not play as big a role as I first thought...but I think it still plays a role.
New York Historical Fencing Association
www.newyorklongsword.com
Byakkokan Dojo
http://newyorkbattodo.com/
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Robin Smith
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| Posted: Fri 02 Nov, 2007 12:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Michael Edelson wrote: | Hi Robin,
For the sake of clarity, I have to stress that I did not, and do not, have any problems cutting mats with any of my lonsgwords. In fact had I not cut on the same day with a katana, I would also not have "reported any problems". The Albion Brescia spadona, which Lance cuts with quite a bit, is a particularly good example of a longsword that is an excellent cutter and makes short work of tatami mats...but still not as good as my kat.
What I'm reporting is a comparison of cutting ability as I percieve it, the cause of which I am trying to determine.
Also, I'd like to point out that a katana, specificall my Emura, has no problems thrusting into a 30 layer jack, which it can actually do without halfswording. So I wouldn't rule out the fact that a katana was also designed for both the cut and the thrust. |
Oh I understand that. I am just trying to say that IMO it is more likely the blade features such as edge geometry and curvature that are responsible for the difference in results. Although harmonics certainly have some effect, I just don't think they are as important of a consideration as the aforementioned blade features. I think another important consideration is linen and other tough fabrics (on up to kevlar or nylon) ability to collectively resist shearing and breakage when the force is spread among multiple fibers. I just think the katana is more optimized to bring the force of the cut down onto a smaller number of fibers, while also introducing a more pronounced slicing action. That's just my theory, and its worth exactly what you paid for it. 
A furore Normannorum libera nos, Domine
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Robin Smith
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| Posted: Fri 02 Nov, 2007 12:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Michael Edelson wrote: | | I'm starting to agree...both because of Vincent's math |
EGADS MAN! Ix-nay on the ath-may. Don't encourage him...  
A furore Normannorum libera nos, Domine
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Michael Edelson
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| Posted: Fri 02 Nov, 2007 12:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Robin Smith wrote: | | Oh I understand that. I am just trying to say that IMO it is more likely the blade features such as edge geometry and curvature that are responsible for the difference in results. Although harmonics certainly have some effect, I just don't think they are as important of a consideration as the aforementioned blade features. I think another important consideration is linen and other tough fabrics (on up to kevlar or nylon) ability to collectively resist shearing and breakage when the force is spread among multiple fibers. I just think the katana is more optimized to bring the force of the cut down onto a smaller number of fibers, while also introducing a more pronounced slicing action. That's just my theory, and its worth exactly what you paid for it. |
Okay, sorry, just artificats from a previous incarnation of this topic floating up again.
I think you're right...I'd just really like to know what the degrees of effect the various factors have.
This is going to get expensive for me, as I think what I have to do now if to either buy or borrow a properly shaped spring tempered katana and give that a shot to see the difference.
Another reason I posted this topic is that I previously made an assertion that a good katana will cut tatami mats better than a good longsword, and that assertion was contested. I wanted to see what others thought.
New York Historical Fencing Association
www.newyorklongsword.com
Byakkokan Dojo
http://newyorkbattodo.com/
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Michael Edelson
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| Posted: Fri 02 Nov, 2007 12:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Robin Smith wrote: | | Michael Edelson wrote: | | I'm starting to agree...both because of Vincent's math |
EGADS MAN! Ix-nay on the ath-may. Don't encourage him... |
Oh nuts...what have I done!?!?!?
New York Historical Fencing Association
www.newyorklongsword.com
Byakkokan Dojo
http://newyorkbattodo.com/
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Vincent Le Chevalier
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| Posted: Fri 02 Nov, 2007 12:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Michael Edelson wrote: | | However, what's interesting to me now is that fact that my gendaito cuts better than even my old Wind and Thunder, which was a heavier sword, just as sharp and also curved. The W&T vibrated a lot...the gendaito is dead. |
It could also be caused by differences in mass repartition, that have a deeper effect and can be "masked" by the vibrations. Of course it would need further study of both weapons, but... What exactly do you mean by "vibrated a lot"?
Feeling a lot of vibrations, whatever the energy stored in them, can be caused by an ill-placed harmonic node, not in the hilt but perhaps further down the blade. Since the nodes are correlated to mass distribution, it could be that the impact during the cut is causing quite a bit of hand shock, so that some of the energy is lost stinging the hands, due to pivot points positions. Or that the mass distribution is less suited to your own technique, so that in the end less energy is present in the blade even before cutting.
Difficult to rule out all these possible causes without some more data on the swords... If you are willing to do some measurements on your gendaito and your Wind and Thunder, I'm willing to help you interpret them
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Vincent
Ensis Sub Caelo
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Vincent Le Chevalier
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| Posted: Fri 02 Nov, 2007 12:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Michael Edelson wrote: | | Robin Smith wrote: | | Michael Edelson wrote: | | I'm starting to agree...both because of Vincent's math |
EGADS MAN! Ix-nay on the ath-may. Don't encourage him... |
Oh nuts...what have I done!?!?!? |
Don't worry, I'm too far down this dark path to come back anyway
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Vincent
Ensis Sub Caelo
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Michael Edelson
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| Posted: Fri 02 Nov, 2007 12:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Vincent Le Chevalier wrote: | | Michael Edelson wrote: | | However, what's interesting to me now is that fact that my gendaito cuts better than even my old Wind and Thunder, which was a heavier sword, just as sharp and also curved. The W&T vibrated a lot...the gendaito is dead. |
It could also be caused by differences in mass repartition, that have a deeper effect and can be "masked" by the vibrations. Of course it would need further study of both weapons, but... What exactly do you mean by "vibrated a lot"?
Feeling a lot of vibrations, whatever the energy stored in them, can be caused by an ill-placed harmonic node, not in the hilt but perhaps further down the blade. Since the nodes are correlated to mass distribution, it could be that the impact during the cut is causing quite a bit of hand shock, so that some of the energy is lost stinging the hands, due to pivot points positions. Or that the mass distribution is less suited to your own technique, so that in the end less energy is present in the blade even before cutting.
Difficult to rule out all these possible causes without some more data on the swords... If you are willing to do some measurements on your gendaito and your Wind and Thunder, I'm willing to help you interpret them |
Hi Vincent,
But then Robin will yell at me for encouraging the math thing.
What I mean by vibrations is not hand shock...there was no hand shock at all. It vibrated when you struck the hilt...the way you test for CoP on a western sword. Of course the vibration was as nothing compared to a longsword's vibration, but it was there. The gendaito barely hums when you strike the hilt.
I don't have the W&T anymore, but lots of people do...maybe someone else could give you what you need.
What would you need to "interpret" the gendaito? I'd be happy to provide it.
(Sorry Robin, I can't help myself...he's using his mystical math powers to make me give him these things against my will....help....)
New York Historical Fencing Association
www.newyorklongsword.com
Byakkokan Dojo
http://newyorkbattodo.com/
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Vincent Le Chevalier
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| Posted: Fri 02 Nov, 2007 12:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Michael Edelson wrote: | | But then Robin will yell at me for encouraging the math thing. |
Hey see the bright side: it gives a chance to check that the math does not work (and in the case of impacts I'm not all that confident either)
| Quote: | | What I mean by vibrations is not hand shock...there was no hand shock at all. It vibrated when you struck the hilt...the way you test for CoP on a western sword. Of course the vibration was as nothing compared to a longsword's vibration, but it was there. The gendaito barely hums when you strike the hilt. |
If really it is that kind of vibration, I doubt it steals much energy. Preventing an efficient cut and turning some of it in blunt trauma is still possible though.
| Quote: | | What would you need to "interpret" the gendaito? I'd be happy to provide it. |
To compare impacts, we would need at the very least:
- overall length
- center of gravity
- an estimation of the center of rotation of the sword just before impact (I would guess left hand, somewhere around kashira)
- a couple of... you guessed it... pivot points Problem is they are a bit more tricky to measure on a curved blade, but you can try it anyway. Finding the one associated to the tsuba should be fine (see http://forums.swordforum.com/showpost.php?p=959720 for the procedure if you have a doubt).
EDIT: having an idea of the part of the blade used to cut would be useful as well, I suspect mono-uchi?
Adding handle length is not useful for this particular problem, could be if we want to know the shock in the hands. But generally it is minimal.
With that, given the mass of the target, I can give the maximum fraction of energy that will be used to do either blunt trauma or cut. Only if this is in the same order for both swords, we should seek another explanation, in my opinion. Which could be differing stiffness, indeed...
Regards,
--
Vincent
Ensis Sub Caelo
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