| Author |
Message |
Michael Edelson
|
 Posted: Tue 06 Nov, 2007 7:53 am Post subject: |
 |
|
| Stephen Hand wrote: | I recall one of the Schola St George symposia in San Francisco where some Japanese sword people set up a test cutting rig. Bob Charron did a sottani (rising) cut with the false edge, immediately followed by a mandritta (descending) with the true edge, neatly slicing off two sections of the rolled mat. One of the JSA people was heard to say that you couldn't do that with a katana.
Cheers
Stephen |
Hi Stephen,
I certainly won't argue with that, as katanas generally don't have flase edges. 
New York Historical Fencing Association
www.newyorklongsword.com
Byakkokan Dojo
http://newyorkbattodo.com/
|
|
   |
 |
|
Angus Trim
|
| Posted: Tue 06 Nov, 2007 9:37 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Stephen Hand wrote: | I recall one of the Schola St George symposia in San Francisco where some Japanese sword people set up a test cutting rig. Bob Charron did a sottani (rising) cut with the false edge, immediately followed by a mandritta (descending) with the true edge, neatly slicing off two sections of the rolled mat. One of the JSA people was heard to say that you couldn't do that with a katana.
Cheers
Stephen |
Yeah, Not Livermore.....that was either Dave Wilson or Jim Alvarez that spoke up {owners of Mugen Dachi}.......
This incident kind of makes a mockery of some of what we talked about earlier in this thread, though Bob is a unique martial artist......
He picked up that sword {or more properly had Kristi pick it up from me, 1st "Northern Italian Longsword" I'd made} on Friday morning, before the event officially opened. He'd had no time to handle or familiarize himself with it...... then promptly did cuts that most of us would find challenging, did them naturally, casually, and made discussion of "velocity" moot. Perfect edge alignment, first time not just cutting with the sword, but handling it........
He told me later, no felt resistance thru the mats, just "snick", "snick".........
Quite an eye opener for some of us that thought we knew what we were doing at the time............
swords are fun
|
|
|
|
|
|
Greg Mele
Industry Professional
Location: Chicago, IL USA Joined: 20 Mar 2006
Posts: 356
|
| Posted: Tue 06 Nov, 2007 11:04 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Angus Trim wrote: |
Yeah, Not Livermore.....that was either Dave Wilson or Jim Alvarez that spoke up {owners of Mugen Dachi}.......
. |
It was Jim, and what he said several times was that he had seen no Japanese swordsman, including Obata sensei, who could turn his hands over and cut back up the line with a a reverse gyaku kesagiri as fast as the longsword could cut up the line with its false edge after a descending cut. And if you know the rules of tempo, that's true...no matter how fast you are, it takes a tempo to turn the hands over.
As to the larger thread, my experience has been that ANY gently curved sword, be that a katana or a western sabre, cuts soft targets better than a straight sword - be that fabric, like a gambeson, or tattami, and is decent at cutting somewhat harder targets, like bamboo, bone, replica mail or plywood. (Yes, plywood.) A more curved sword slices really well, but doesn't penetrate against hard targets at all. A straight sword, like the longsword, doesn't slice as well, but generates a lot of chopping power and works very well against harder targets.
So it's a continuum. A katana or gently curved sabre might be a slightly better all-purpose cutter, but I don't know that it would matter much in actual combat, as opposed to just test-cutting. And with any kind of *Western* armour involved, I'd prefer the straight blade.
(And of course, not all examples of swords are created equal. There's an amazing 11th c blade in the U of Illinois' museum that is still sharp for most of its edge, and with a repaired handle would probably still be usable in combat, whereas the 1930ish gunto I used to own was cool as a piece of history, but frankly was no better at cutting than a Paul Chen Practical katana.)
Best,
Greg
Greg
Greg Mele
Chicago Swordplay Guild
www.chicagoswordplayguild.com
www.freelanceacademypress.com
|
|
|
|
|
|
Lafayette C Curtis
|
| Posted: Fri 09 Nov, 2007 12:36 am Post subject: |
|
|
The most intriguing statement here is probably Gus's account of the claymore chopping through wood. So far the tests mentioned in this thread have generally measured the swords' ability to deal with soft targets like tatami mats or fabric jacks, where the slicing power of the katana matters a great deal. What about testing those same swords against something harder, like the plywood board Gus mentioned up there, so that we can also get a measure of nearly pure chopping ability with little or no slicing included? I suspect the katana will not perform quite as well as most longsowrds in this kind of test, and the results will confirm Greg's theory that there's a continuum between master slicers on one end (the katana is porbably quite close to this) and monster choppers on the other.
It would make sense because the katana as we know it was actually perfected for urban combat against unarmored opponents during the relative peace of the Tokugawa era, so it could afford to optimize cutting power against soft targets without having to worry about the ability to deal with more solid targets like the rawhide scales used on many low-end Japanese armors. Even its thrusting point was designed to deal with the larger gaps found in Japanese armors as opposed to the smaller openings in a properly-made European plate harness. Personally, I'd strongly prefer the katana against unarmored opponents, but I'd pick up a more massive and chopping-oriented sword at the slightest hint of armor.
(Zombies might be an exception, though. I'd choose an European longsword for use against them, since the Zwerchhau is the head-bashing technique par excellence....)
|
|
|
|
|
Michael Edelson
|
| Posted: Fri 09 Nov, 2007 7:35 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Lafayette C Curtis wrote: | | The most intriguing statement here is probably Gus's account of the claymore chopping through wood. So far the tests mentioned in this thread have generally measured the swords' ability to deal with soft targets like tatami mats or fabric jacks, where the slicing power of the katana matters a great deal. What about testing those same swords against something harder, like the plywood board Gus mentioned up there, so that we can also get a measure of nearly pure chopping ability with little or no slicing included? I suspect the katana will not perform quite as well as most longsowrds in this kind of test, and the results will confirm Greg's theory that there's a continuum between master slicers on one end (the katana is porbably quite close to this) and monster choppers on the other. |
I understand why people think a curved sword slices better (though you can slice with a longsword just fine...I used slicing cuts to defeat the jack), what I don't understand is why people think a curved sword chops worse than a straight one. There are as many curved axe blades as straight ones (if not more), and they chop just fine. Same with messers.
| Quote: | | It would make sense because the katana as we know it was actually perfected for urban combat against unarmored opponents during the relative peace of the Tokugawa era, so it could afford to optimize cutting power against soft targets without having to worry about the ability to deal with more solid targets like the rawhide scales used on many low-end Japanese armors. |
I doubt that is true. While the katana did become more flamboyant during the shin-shinto period and some would say of lower overall quality (though some of the best swords of all time were forged during that period), the cause of the changes was largely artistic (fancier hamon, hada, etc.) and not an effort to optimize the sword for any specific form of combat. Also, the katana "as we know it today" has more in common with koto and shinto styles, in my opinion.
| Quote: | | Even its thrusting point was designed to deal with the larger gaps found in Japanese armors as opposed to the smaller openings in a properly-made European plate harness. |
It's not the openings themselves that are the issue, it's what was in them. In the case of European armor, it was mail, and yes, the katana's point is not designed to deal with mail.
New York Historical Fencing Association
www.newyorklongsword.com
Byakkokan Dojo
http://newyorkbattodo.com/
|
|
|
|
|
|
Lafayette C Curtis
|
| Posted: Fri 16 Nov, 2007 1:55 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Michael Edelson wrote: | | I understand why people think a curved sword slices better (though you can slice with a longsword just fine...I used slicing cuts to defeat the jack), what I don't understand is why people think a curved sword chops worse than a straight one. There are as many curved axe blades as straight ones (if not more), and they chop just fine. Same with messers. |
Didn't say that curved blades chop worse....
Well, if I said anything to that effect, it'd be quite specific to the katana because the thickness of the katana's blade and the angle of its bevel makes it look like it wouldn't be as good at chopping as flatter, broader, thinner swords like Type XIIIs. Of course, I'm fully aware that the later katanas from the late Muromachi period onwards were flatter and broader than previous models, perhaps in an attempt to get a better balance between slicing and chopping characteristics.
(And axes were nothing if not flat and broad, even more so than swords--the first thing I always do when I get a new felling-axe is to hammer its edges so that it'd get even flatter and broader for maximum wood-chopping power.)
For a test that's less likely to damage an expensive katana than hacking at wooden boards, maybe we could use thick cuir bouilli? If there's anybody who makes such a thing, that is.
|
|
|
|
|
Michael Edelson
|
| Posted: Fri 16 Nov, 2007 8:26 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I just got back from the New York Custom Knife Show with a Duke, among other tings. That jack is going to get it now!
New York Historical Fencing Association
www.newyorklongsword.com
Byakkokan Dojo
http://newyorkbattodo.com/
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
|
All contents © Copyright 2003-2024 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum
|
This is a standard topic