[Robin Palmer]

Ken I believe we may have rather wondered off the topic

[Shahril Dzulkifli]

Here is another British P1908 Cavalry Troopers' Sword and it has a regulation straight single-edged 34 1/2" blade, stamped with the broad arrow & E.F.D. Enfield, dated 1915. This sword is kept in its original steel scabbard with two fixed hanging rings (recently painted black) and it also comes with a steel bowl guard & chequered hardwood grip.

[Ken Speed]

Robin, Well, yes and no. The swords question led us to the usage question led us to tactics and strategy and generals. "The hipbone is connected to the thighbone" you know? We even had a little side excursion to saddles. I liked it. I learned a few things.

I have to admit that I'm really of two minds about a lot of this stuff. For example I like Viking era swords and things but a part of me says that the Vikings, when they were raiding, were basically thieves, murderers and slavers. They weren't any better or worse than anyone else at that time but what can I say? They'd make really lousy neighbors ! Probably why the Skraelings were bummed out when they moved into their neighborhood.

WWI has a personal interest for both of us but it was an amazingly brutal war that cost a tremendous number of lives and laid the groundwork for WWII. Its tough to be value neutral about it.


Ken

[Robin Palmer]

ken
Sorry I haven't got back sooner world war one was a mess and its effects shaped the world we live today. Many years ago when I was in the army an officer instructor made an interesting comment about the way the first war ended. He stated that had the allies refused the armistis and stuck it out through the winter launching the planned 1919 offensive the German army would have be destroyed and the war ended with allied tanks driving through Berlin. A major part of the problem with the end of the first war was the German troops climbed out of the trenches they had occupied since 1914 in many cases literally. They did not feel defeated they felt betrayed by the government at home a resentment Hitler and co found it only to easy to use to their own ends.

It is easy to understand why the allies excepted the German offer given losses but with hindsight it is also possible to see that holding out would have saved millions of lives. unfortunately the politicians and generals didn't have our advantage and did what they thought was best at the time it is left to others to decide if they did it right.

[Ken Speed]

Robin said, ".... A major part of the problem with the end of the first war was the German troops climbed out of the trenches they had occupied since 1914 in many cases literally. They did not feel defeated they felt betrayed by the government at home a resentment Hitler and co found it only to easy to use to their own ends. "

Yes, indeed. And, of course, there had to be a scapegoat. As well, there were the punishments that Germany had to accept too. One of my history teachers said that the Germans had to makes ropes from paper after WWI but I have to admit I'm not totally clear it it was because of lost colonies or duties or what. I think that the Germans were left with only one seaport after WWI as well. Economic hardship from WWI was also instrumental in getting Hitler the support he needed. Anti-communism and anti-semitism was a big part of it too and there were a lot of Nazi sympathizers in the upper levels of government and industry in both the U.S. and Britain.

You know I was thinking about this discussion and I realized I hadn't made my point as well as I could have when we were talking about the WWI generals. I'm sure you've heard that saying, "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result." Well, to me that really recapitulates the thinking of many of the leaders both military and civilian of WWI.

I have to wonder how many parallels the U.S. is going to experience from the debacle in Iraq. Our civilian leadership was simply inadequate to the task. Our military leadership approached the Iraqi war the way a football coach approaches a big game. They had a plan to win the war, they executed it and when the dust settled they thought they had won. "The wars over, we won, we're done now.." Remember "Mission accomplished"? Disbanding the Iraqi Army and banning Baathists from the new government were two of the biggest mistakes. Somehow there was no plan for the occupation/ transition of Iraq and it left a huge hole that people with interest antithetical to ours were only too happy to fill. Not to mention that, with luck, the children of the kids in kindergarten might be able to pay off the debt for this war.

It seems to me that we're getting pretty off topic here and it also seems like we're the only ones interested in this anymore, maybe we should continue this discussion privately?

Hey, when you're not discussing WWI, don't you make swords or something? LOL

Best regards,



Ken Speed

[D Critchley]

[Robin Palmer]

Hi ken

Yes I do, have done for twenty years nothing grand but they work largely dark age and medieval mostly for re-enactments. I tend to provide a economy version for people who need a starting weapon if I can figure out how this system works I will post a few pictures.

I have used assorted medieval weapons for thirty years and taught sword for twenty medieval martial arts style for the last ten. When I started very few people outside academic circles had heard of silver and de grassi. Thoses who had rarely had access to them the internet has opened a lot of doors for a lot of us. I have also been interested in weapons for over forty years and have handled a lot of originals down the years. Which for better or worse has given me some solid opinions on weapons and types. hence my views on the 1908 which as an old cavalry man told me made a second rate lance and a poor sword.

[Ken Speed]

D Critchley wrote, "On WWI I must say everyone is doing a sterling job at being wise after the event.
Pointless and irrelivant of course.. but well done all the same!!"


Thank you so much for your profoundly erudite contribution to the discussion. One must wonder what all the collectors of swords and armor think of your dismissal of the importance of history. Let us not forget historians, anthropologists, archeologists, economists, military commanders and strategists and, one would hope, politicians who study the past.

Let me make two points; A. You had and have every right to participate in the discussion and did not. B. Reading a discussion is voluntary.


Ken Speed

[Ken Speed]

Hi Robin,


Yeah, I'm not the most computer literate person in the world either. I would be very interested to see pictures of some of your work when you are able to post them. I'd like to hear about your methodologies as well.

I more or less tumbled on this site by accident and as I started reading (lurking) I slowly got hooked and now here I am. The weapons and armor are sort of a springboard into the rest of the culture/history/technology of a particular time for me although they are intrinsically interesting to me in their own right as well.

Best regards,



Ken Speed

[Robin Palmer]

Hi ken

Its a pleasure to find I am not the only computer challenged person on site I was beginning to think I was the only one who didn't have a clue how things worked. Like you I fell into the site by accident and have found navana I have spent most of my life studying collecting and using weapons of all types. It is a real pleasure to be able to discuss the subject with people who know what they are talking about. Or at least have an interest in history and a desire to learn more.

Ref your previous post I agree totaly unfortunately politicians especially are born with a gene which tells them that they know better than anyone else and they will never makes the same mistake as previous leaders they are to smart for that???????? Generals should learn but suffer the disadvantage of having to serve both military goals and political masters.

[Robin Palmer]

Hi Ken

Ref my manufacturing methods I use stock removal usually recycling land rover leaf springs. I do my own tempering that way I know what has been done and how as most of my production is blunt for re-enactment I test my blades four full blows against a 250lb length of rail track. Which I believe sorts out the weak ones fairly rapidly. Once I get this post thing sorted I will be happy to chat I am not sure of the time difference between us I an one the south east coast of england on the south side of the Thames estuary which makes working out when to post to find you on tricky.

your bob

[Shahril Dzulkifli]

Here is a British P1908 Cavalry Sword from me plus its description:
Hilt Mounts: Pommel and ferrule at bottom of grip are of malleable cast iron. Grips: Dermatine or similar light brown plastic with a large depression for the thumb, grip length 6.75 inches. Guard: Sheet steel bowl with a beaded edge stamped 2K.E.H. A81; sword knot slot near the pommel and a large pear shaped reinforcing piece on outside near blade shoulder. A brown leather sword knot is attached to the guard. The blade is straight tapered with a single fuller on each side to within 8 inches of the spear point and double edged for last 6 inches and stamped P'08 on the back edge near the guard. The ricasso is stamped on the right with a broad arrow and E.F.D., a proof mark, X and on the left two inspectors marks and 3.15. A buff leather washer is pinned to the blade where it meets the guard. The scabbard is tapered sheet steel with two fixed strap loops 2.25 inches from mouthpiece. It is stamped on the back edge with a broad arrow, E.F.D., a proof mark and '12. The locket is stamped on the back 14.R.R. over 97.

[Russ Thomas]

Hello Folks,
If I might add a note or two here regarding this pattern sword.
IIRC, following the sword scandals of the mid 1880's, there were a number of commissions set up to develop the 'perfect sword'. The basic design was ready by 1904 and adjusted to what we have here in 1906. However, The King, Edward VII , thought that the sword was so ugly and wouldn't sign the warrant ! It took them a while to persuade him that this was the ultimate cavalry weapon, so it was not adopted until 1908. Amongst other things , the weapon was judged to be more humane that the 1899 pattern, not heavy enough to lop off an arm or a head, but quite capable of doing enough damage that you would want to give up and go home!
Personally, I think that it is a beautiful looking sword, but obviously I seem to be in a bit of a minority here.....is it still a treasonable offence to disagree with a king ?

My own example is stamped I.D. ( 1st 'Royal' Dragoons), and dated 1915. It is an Enfield made weapon EFD, and has a 35 1/2"blade, and the last 10" or so were sharpened for use during the 1st World War. It also still has traces of its original green wartime paint around the scabbard rings.
Although my particular sword was not my fathers, he was however in The Royal Dragoons, 1942- 47, and it was only in 1941 that the regiment gave up their horses and swords and became mechanised! Up until then they, and the 'Scots Greys', were still using horses and the 1908 pattern sword in North Africa. They gave them up just in time, I can't really imagine my father charging around at El Alamein on a horse!!
Thankyou all for an interesting topic.

Regards, Russ

[Jonathan Hopkins]

Russ,
Thank you for adding to the conversation. It is neat that your father was a trained cavalryman! Below are some photos of various experimental cavalry sword patterns of the early 20th century.

From Robson's Swords of the British Army:





7th Hussars Special Pattern (courtesy of R. Wilkinson-Latham):





The 7th Hussars Special Pattern worn by Douglas Haig (statue in Edinburgh):

[Ken Speed]

Hi Russ,

You know I really hate to display my ignorance this way but, on the other hand, I'm getting tremendous amounts of practice here so I'm starting to get pretty good at it.

You wrote, "... following the sword scandals of the mid 1880's" sword scandals, what sword scandals? Is this going to be one of those stories like the trailer homes our government made for the people left homeless by Katrina? The ones with so much formaldehyde in them that the government won't let its own employees go inside? Just the other day I was wondering how much it would cost if Homeland Security built a lemonade stand and then I started to wonder what they would put in the lemonade. I upset myself so badly I had to push it out of my mind!


Thanks,




Ken Speed

[Chad Arnow]

[Jonathan Hopkins]

Ken,
Here is a discussion from SFI that discusses the failings of sword and bayonets in the 1880s.

And here is the post that contains some scans related to the scandal, including an illustration.

Jonathan

[Russ Thomas]

Hello folks,

Jonathan, fortunately The Regiment had changed from horses to armoured cars by the time my father arrived. Which is just as well as I am 6' 2" and ca. 14 stone ( 186cm & 90kgs), and my father was bigger than me ! But in the regimental history by Pitt- Rivers regarding the second World War, there are pictures of the regiment as late as 1941 in Tunisia, still using this sword. I do not think that the sword is still carried by any regiments today, but the cavalry officers 1912 pattern is still worn.

As a little aside to the 1912 pattern, this may interest you:
some years ago when I was still collecting swords, a 1912 pattern came into my possession, minus the grip wire and pommel. I spoke with Mr. Button at Wilkinson Sword and asked about the possibility of obtaining a pommel and wire from them. No problem there , just come down and they would see what they could do. I did just that. However, neither Mr. Button nor I could remember how many wires the grip should have, 3 or 5 ? So we went into their museum, which anyone who was fortunate enough to have that privilege will recall it being quite an experience for a sword lover ! Anyway, the gentleman opened a case and took out a 1912 pattern. However, this was obviously no ordinary 1912 pattern. The bowl was hand chased, to a very high quality, as was the pommel. When the sword was unsheathed the reason became apparent. The sword which bore the Prince of Wales feathers, had belonged to Prince Edward, the future King Edward VIII, but upon his abdicating the throne he returned the sword to Wilkinson Sword, and they subsequently engraved the story down the spine of the blade.......... Apart from unexpectedly getting to handle a little piece of history , I got my pommel and wire too !
Sorry, I digressed a bit there. Hope it was of interest anyway.............

Ken, During the 1870's & 80's many of the edged weapons used by the British armed forces were made in Germany, and during action many of these weapons were found to be soft and easily bent. The British made weapons being found to be somewhat superior. This led to a series of articles etc. in the English press about the quality of the swords and bayonets issued to the forces. IIRC. there was a cartoon in the times about an officer wanting a cork screw, and a soldier offering him his 1876 pattern Martini Henry socket bayonet, with the words:" Corkscrew Sir, my bayonet will do just as well!"


Regards,

Russ