so you thought hollow pommels were bad? -- myArmoury.com

Kerry Stagmer · Industry Professional

This came into me today from a customer who owns hundreds of weapons ..... he was asking if it was worth repairing.

I am personally astounded at this type of construction. This is exactly why I tell people I would never consider product like this for any kind of contact. In this case the blade is even sold as a blunt specificly for stage use!

This tang was so small and lopsided that it appears they welded in a couple of tiny bars to make up the difference. The welds have no penetration and the tang makes this sword worthless other then to hang over a fireplace.

Maybe they figured if its under the handle it doesnt matter. Amazing

Cheap things ARENT NICE and nice things ARENT CHEAP..... words to live by....

M. Eversberg II · Posted: Fri 11 Jan, 2008 12:49 am Post subject:

D:

He's lucky nobody got hurt off that!

M.

Lancelot Chan · Industry Professional

Oh! I recognize that as Hanwei Side sword or hanwei practical side sword! Should be the practical one from the grip. I own the practical one and my students own the sharp version. They seem to be fine so far. I didn't use the blunt for heavy contact though. The sharp were used to cut things up. I do find that the guard of the said sword was quite soft and could be bent around with my hands. I saw that one of the siderings was broken in the photo, which I wouldn't be surprised.

Nathan Robinson · myArmoury Admin

While these posts are somewhat useful for the members of the arms and armour community, the notion of a maker sharing such tales of work made by other makers does not sit well with me. In fact, I think it's in very bad form. Such critique is best left for the general public.

M. Eversberg II · Posted: Fri 11 Jan, 2008 3:24 am Post subject:

Kerry Stagmer · Industry Professional

Lance, can you check the tang on yours and compare? If there are several of these out there among members it should be easy to tell if the construction is similar. The owner of this sword has 3 more and is going to check them as well.

If we can check several blades like this and determine if this was an oddball or not, it certainly helps everyone to know what to look for. The guard being fragile is much less of an issue as you can determine by EYE if it is suitable for the intended work, it is also easy to repair.

It was EXACTLY a discussion like this that got promises to fix the hollow pommel issue. If I remember correctly another maker was involved in that discussion as well...

Lancelot Chan · Industry Professional

Hmmm....I'm wondering how am I going to be able to check the tang without breaking it apart and see the cross section? At least the coloring on the steel and the grind marks look the same.

Kerry Stagmer · Industry Professional

If you look at pic # 2 there is discoloration where the weld is on the tang. This would be a pretty clear indication of a weld, different 'color' metal. It would show up more if the tang is heated from rough grinding like in the photo, but even under polish you can see welds at the dissimilar materials show. It is fairly hard to see if the metal is scuffed like a scotchbrite pad would do.

I would like to say that under certain circumstances welding on tangs and blades IS acceptable. It must be done with a similar material, fully penatrating the steels and heat treated afterwards. Welding is about making 2 or more parts one. It doenst have to be pretty , just strong!

Lancelot Chan · Industry Professional

I don't see any different coloring between metal, though.

Joseph Medioli · Posted: Fri 11 Jan, 2008 9:34 am Post subject:

I just looked at that photograph and I'm both appalled and sympathetic. My first rapier came from MRL (Bone-Handled Left-Handed Rapier), bought about 4-5 years ago now. The blade never gave me any troubles, at least in part because after using it for a year, the hilt disintegrated in my hands when practicing with a friend. Upon closer inspection, it turned out that the hilt was made up of FOUR oorly welded pieces that were connected where the hilt is connected to the blade. This was surprising given how much stress is concentrated on that point, especially when gripping with one or two fingers around the cross guard. One second I was holding the rapier, and the next I was holding a loose blade with the hilt in pieces on the ground. Thank god for choreographed routines, because I could have easily been skewered.

As I remember, that was still a $275 weapon at the time, far from cheap for a high-schooler. It was a lesson I learned the hard way. Do your research BEFORE a purchase and check it thoroughly before using it. Though it has been a while since I last purchased a blade, I know that it is worth the price to go with a top quality manufacturer.

Bob Burns · Posted: Sat 12 Jan, 2008 3:17 am Post subject:

Looks a lot like my "Cold Steel" Grosse Messer that went kerplunk on me well over a year ago when I was cutting some
3'4 inch thick by 3 1/2 inch wide pine boards one at a time. Snapped about 2 inches inside the hilt right where the hole was for one of the rivets. Fortunately I only paid $169.00 for it.

As far as "Hanwei" swords go, I've Never had a problem with a Hanwei! I have their Sir William Marshall Sword and their Godfred Viking Sword and both hold a beautiful sharp edge and cut excellent and their hilts are solid!
Bob

William Goodwin · Posted: Sat 12 Jan, 2008 4:09 am Post subject:

First...thank you Bob B. for throwing in a "good" word for Hanwei. I too own 4 of their swords (quite soon ...maybe 5) and they have all been used rather heavily and hold up well.

If some remember,when I got my Cromwell mortuary as it first came out there was a heat reatment issue with mine. I was a bit disappointed at first yes, but Hanwei fixed the defect and worked hard to investigate the preoblem from start ot finish.

Too, I understand the need to inform the community of such problems as well. With a production company (or any) there are going to be a few mis-haps here & there. But what makes or breaks a company is in the manner in which they handle such production and custmer service issues, both good and bad. Just my view.....

Would like to ask a question about the sword presented here and to it's owner , (don't know if I've missed this answer or not), in what situation / capacity was this sword being used when the break happened?

Bill

Glen A Cleeton · Posted: Sat 12 Jan, 2008 9:56 am Post subject:

Bob Burns · Posted: Sat 12 Jan, 2008 11:06 am Post subject:

All I know is that the hilts on my Godfred and Sir William Marshall Swords are solid as can be, in fact I even put my gauntlets on and tried to twist the hilt loose on the Sir William Marshall sword in response to a post in a thread where I was asked if the hilt was solid on my Sir William Marshall sword. I held the blade in one hand and the hilt in the other and I am a rather strong guy.
Also, I've cut and cut and cut with both of these swords and they perform beautifully. I've not had the slightest problem with either sword and I've had both of them for 2 years.

All I can say are the results from my own experiences.

Bob

Kerry Stagmer · Industry Professional

Hey Glen,

To be honest, that extended tang weld looks pretty good from the pic. Welding on a piece of mild to use less laminated steel was the norm among many makers in the 80's and 90's, less so now that more info and simpler forge welding tecniques are out there (presses and such) . So long as the metals are fairly close in carbon and are properly welded I dont see any problem with that. The threaded part welded on is also pretty standard and if done right usually can hold up just fine. It appears from the pic that it broke on the thread itself and not the weld? I cant really tell. If so then most likely the material of the added thread is usually the problem, not the type of construction. Material for added threads are a huge debate as well. most like reheattreated hard bolts, I like very soft and flexible rod, that debate has been going on for years.

The broken blade is another thing entirely, but if the replacement has held up well and the importer replaced it for free then It looks like like they sorted it out.

I was informed after some debate these 4 swords will be returned so I guess this turns out ok.

Bob Burns · Posted: Sat 12 Jan, 2008 11:59 am Post subject:

Oh, I forgot, I also have the Hanwei Cromwell Mortuary sword, have had it since mid spring of last year, done lots of cutting with it and I have not had the least problem with it either. Also the blade is very lifely as are the Godred and the
Sir William Marshall Sword.

I knew I forgot to mention something! LOL

Bob

Glen A Cleeton · Posted: Sat 12 Jan, 2008 12:24 pm Post subject:

I don't mean to give folk gray hairs with those pictures, I just have a hard time not posting them when tang and Godfred get mentioned in the same thread Laughing Out Loud

I'd say I'm stronger than Bob, if I was able to shear that pommel off by hand but the William Marshal is probably buttressed a bit by the grip seated in the pommel (although I am a big boy too). As I also mentioned, a friend loves his William Marshall since 2002 and has not been gentle with it at times.

Here is a horrible scan I did some years ago. The tang in the middle is of Patrick Kelly's old Oscar Kolombatovich.
MRL on the left and MRL/Del Tin on the right (5/16" and 1/4" threads respectively).

Patrick had done some abusive testing that broke another sword during the session. he was hanging commercial mail and plate on a side of beef and wailing away. The Oscar has an interesting stepped shoulder thing going on that spreads load out at different points of the gaurd. Scary looking though, huh?

Cheers

GC

PS
No, Paul Chen (himself) was grateful for feedback but Tuscany Trading was long gone and I had ripped the blade asunder under some fairly abusive circumstances. It did exhibit overcooked steel. Having gotten both the sword and replacement blade at bargain pricing, I have about current retail plus my time into it. I do still like the way these handle.

Bob Burns · Posted: Wed 16 Jan, 2008 9:37 am Post subject:

Well, I gotta respond to this post by Glen. It was the Sir William Marshall sword that I tried to twist in checking for looseness, I am not going to get into "Testosterone Talk" Laughing Out Loud

nor do I want to sound like I am boasting, but I am "still" a pretty strong guy, though I am now in line for the glue factory at age 50 with arthritis through my spine, which was caused by years of maniacal weightlifting workouts with dead weight, meaning barbells and dumbells. Then add to that all the karate and years of working in the trades, I did a real number on myself, bigtime! In my quest to be Atlas I wrecked my back, which was really Stupid!! I've also done some pretty incredible things in the art of "breaking", such as boards, etc. but the one that sticks out from years past was while in a seated position, because my sister, her boyfriend and I were playing a game called "RISK", well my sister was having incredible luck and taking all my countries, somewhat emotionally unstable back in those years (mid twenties) I blew my cork, hit an empty returnable 12 ounce beer bottle with a chop type of a strike at the middle of the bottle and split the bottle in half horizontally, the top of the bottle flew across the room into a wall and the bottom of the bottle moved about a quarter of an inch! Laughing Out Loud

On my deceased father's soul and my deceased beloved "Puli"
(Hungarian Sheepdog) dog's "Kelley" soul I swear this is the absolute truth! As totally "Out There" it may sound it is the truth! Or there was the time I got mad at a tree root of a tree stump out front of my house I got so mad at that tree root LOL that when I struck it with the flat blade side of a pick axe, I bent the blade 90 degrees. My wife "Gayle" saw that one and could not believe her eyes. As far as these feats go, "Gary Chelette" would no doubt make me look "Silly", given the fact that he is a 7th degree black belt in karate and therefore a "Grand Master", I am only a 1st degree black belt but from a tough to get rank school.

Joe Fults, Mark of Ollin Blades and Shane Allee were present when I cut a 4 gallon heavy duty plastic jug in half with my Arms & Armor "Three Ring Italian Rapier" which has a blade about 7/8 of an inch wide and I remember Joe saying
"Not with a Rapier! I would never have believed it unless I was here to see it! Laughing Out Loud

Please don't misconstrue, I am having a Lot of Fun with this post and it's very humorous to me but I am telling the Absolute Truth!

So, I am not short on power but at the same time, I am well past my prime and my "Hey Day" is OVER! But I have very strong hands, so Maybe "my" Sir William Marshall Sword was in a batch of swords that were very well made?
Now, I had the tang of my Cold Steel Gross Messer break in half when I cut a board of pine wood (4 inches wide and
3/4 inches thick) on a pallet that was cross grain to my cut. Oh, the board cut but the Grosse Messer split in two about 2 inches inside the hilt from the blade.
But I have never had a problem with any of my Hanweis, maybe the difference is that the first Hanwei that I bought was in 2006? Perhaps the company has improved as allegedly has Windlass also improved?
I am just over 6' 1" and 200 lbs. Also, there's no lack of strength here, maybe there are a few brain cells missing from getting punched and kicked in the head, but no lack of strength! HAHAHAHAHAHA

Hope your not doing "Roids"! Laughing Out Loud

Just Kidding of course and I did get a kick out of your post by the way Glen! Good sense of humor!

I just could not resist having some "Truthful" fun with this post! Thanks for your tolerance Exclamation

Most Sincerely!

Bob

Bob Burns · Posted: Wed 16 Jan, 2008 7:51 pm Post subject:

Wow, that tang in the middle from Patrick's former sword is indeed a "Sad" sight to see. Reminds me of the one and only wallhanger that I have ever owned. Ironically, it is a Hanwei Laughing Out Loud

Lowlander, pretty decent blade that is ruined by a rat tail tang, which just does not make any sense to me at all! Why wreck what could have been a fairly decent sword for the price with a piece of junk tang that has been welded in two places? One proximal to the blade, the other proximal to the pommel and a lousy weld at that.
But truly, "my" Sir William Marshall Sword, Cromwell Sword and the Godfred Viking Sword have been trouble free swords and I have done some heavy duty cutting with the Sir William Marshall Sword, in that I cut a few boards that were not any thicker than a half inch. However, I would never even think of cutting any kind of wood with my
Albion or Arms & Armor Swords, which is also one of the reasons that I bought a few Hanwei and Windlass swords, so that I could beat on them a bit for the fun of some rather radical cutting. Obviously, not for cutting 2 by 4s or oak boards, etc. In fact, that same pallet with the 3/4" by 4" pine boards that I wrecked my Cold Steel Messer Sword on, was no problem for my Sir William Marshall Sword. I've only cut wood (never thick) a few times and have not done so in well over a year.
I've read and heard that Windlass and Hanwei both have improved the manufacturing of some or all of their swords relatively recently. As a matter of fact I was warned not to buy the Hanwei Godred sword because it was nothing but problems. Well, after some contemplation I took the chance and bought the Godfred from Kult of Athena for the price at that time of $295.00 as opposed to the suggested retail price of $475.00 and it too has performed very well, in fact it's one of the best cutters I have for water filled plastic jugs and cardboard boxes and the Godfred is as solid and nick free as it was the day I bought it Exclamation

Plus, the Godfred, Cromwell and the Marshall swords all hold a sharp edge very well. rarely have I ever needed to sharpen any of them.
By the way, since Del Tin is mentioned in Glen's post, I just recently acquired the largest of the Del Tin Viking Swords, the one with birds on the pommel and crossguard, it's very close to 40 inches long and weighs 4.30 pounds, obviously a one hander. It's a BEAST, that's for sure, but I have no poblems wielding the sword, not even on horizontal cuts, but I can also wield my Arms & Armor German Bastard Sword with one hand and I do well with jug cutting (horizontal of course, but a lot of that is to be credited to the artisans at Arms & Armor, being that their swords are superbly balanced for their intended applications, as are Albion Swords as well!

OK, I am going to conclude my post before I start babbling like I did with my previous post and Thank "YOU" once again for reading my post.
I have very much enjoyed this thread and I sure do Love this Website!

Most Sincerely and with Good Will to All!

Bob

Jean Thibodeau · Posted: Wed 16 Jan, 2008 8:57 pm Post subject:

To follow Bob's comments about using a sword a bit close to abuse: When I did some cutting of melons and pumpkins last October with my Generation 2 Dordogne I gave the 5" square post we were using a couple of heavy cuts at 45 degrees and the sword bit heavily into the wood the way one would expect more from an axe and the sword is still O.K. Wink

A couple of hits may be insufficient to be 100% sure about the strength of the sword but a bad rat tail tang wouldn't have held up to the stress in all probability.

Oh, I can't easily and don't want to take the handle apart so I don't know what the tang looks like but the Generation 2 swords are reputed to be overbuilt to a degree.

I also have a " Braveheart " sword ( Unknown maker or at least I'm not sure ) that has a hollow metal handle and the tang is a short 3" of decent tang welded to a less than 1/4" rod. It gets worse ! Eek!

Just before the point where the rod is welded there is a large hole in the tang leaving only 1/16" or less of tang on each side of the hole ! Sad

I reinforced the whole thing with steel rods overlapping the junction of tang and rod and wrapped it with strong nylon cord and filled the whole hollow handle with epoxy to make the handle one solid mass. Still, a walhanger as I wouldn't trust this quick fix, MUCH !

This sword was bought around 6 years ago and really helped me to be very careful about buying " junk " swords ! Low end swords are a lot better now as many companies have learned to at least make the tang as good as the rest of a sword.

I have no idea who made this version of the Braveheart sword !? Oh, and as Bob said: Why did they bother making a decent blade and put such a badly engineered tang on it ?