[Jerry Knox]

I was reading over some information on flammard blades and one thing struck me that I had not seen written before. Almost universally, they were used in applications where very hard things would be routinely struck (rapiers were used blade-to-blade, zweihangers were used to hammer on armored men and langetted polearms, etc). Then I thought of another cutting tool that is routinely serrated, cheap kitchen knives.

The reason the knives are serrated is that many people use glass cutting boards, which almost instantly wreck razor edges, and most people are not very good at sharpening knives. The tips of the serrations remedy this by taking the blunting of the large, flat, hard surface, and leave a razor-sharp edge between them, ready to cut the soft food that is pressed between the teeth of the knife.

Wouldn't this also work in swords, especially if they were used on relatively flat surfaces like armor and sword-flats? Maybe the reason that they anecdotally "cut better" is that they just stayed sharp in the face of abuse, not that they were sharper to begin with.

If you're pounding on armor, a razor edge is not important, and a very dull sword would be fine, but on leather and cloth armor, that dull sword would skate off. Maybe by having serrations, the same sword that could beat on plate could also slice buff coats.

I think I've even seen a two-hander which had intentionally dull "teeth" with scalloped-out sharp serrations between them.


What does everyone think?

[Jerry Knox]

Here's a picture of one with noticeably more acutely angled edges inside the scallops. From the two-hander album of this site! http://www.myArmoury.com/albums/photo/928.html

[Anders Backlund]

It's an interesting thought, I believe. Unfortunately, I know very little about flammards, so I hope someone more knowledgeable on the subject can comment.

[Michael Ramey]

Also, the wavy edge will help to concentrate the force by changing the impact area from a straight line to a much smaller curve, assuming you hit on the crest(s) and not the trough(s) of the edge.

MJRamey

[Fabrice Cognot]

Yes, but no

You don't use a big two hander the same way as a kitchen knife. A kitchen knife slices, a two hander cuts.

As most of the big two handers we know have been in collections and underwent regular cleaning and care, we canot be sure of how close to the original their current edge is.

But from what I can recall, the inside of the serrations of big two handers I had the chance to see from close were far from razor-sharp.

I'm going for another museum trip tomorrow, I'll try to have another look and maybe take a pic or two, if I can manage to think about it that is.

Cheers

Fab

[Jerry Knox]

Welcome to the site!

I am fairly certain that the "force concentration" discussion has occurred on this site before. Searching for "flammard" or "flamberge" should bring up such discussions. I think the consensus was that there was no consensus on that point

Does anyone have an opinion or better yet, experience, with the effect of flammard blade shapes on edge retention?

[Bill Grandy]

Hi Jerry,
I'm quite certain that serrated kitchen knives are not created this way just to avoid dulling the outer waves on glass boards, though I suppose that could be an added effect. Serrations on kitchen knives are used because they work to cut things with slightly harder outsides and mushier insides (bread, tomatoes, etc). And like Fabrice pointed out, you don't use a sword the way a kitchen knife is used.

Further more, it is a myth that one is supposed to "pound" on armour with a sword. Swords are meant to be used where the armour isn't: The armpits, the inside of the elbow, etc. Pounding on armour will likely result in a very short life for the sword.

I've done test cutting with both flambard blades and straight ones. Personally, I really don't find a noticable difference at all. The actual edge geometry seems far more important than the waves do.

[Shane Allee]

One thing that might also be worth throwing into the mix is the early iron age use of flamberge spear heads. The Celts did some very interesting spear designs with various shapes and cut outs, and included in these were some flamberge spears and javelins. I don't recall if there are any spears, but some javelins would have the crest bent up or down alternating back and forth. There is also one very nice spear that looks fairly common in profile, but upon looking down the edge one can see where they filed in a wavy cutting edge. It seemed that they were very intent on coming up with designs to make for very nasty cut and stab wounds.

Shane

[Jerry Knox]

I have actually seen quite a few knives that advertise "never needs sharpening" and they are always serrated, softer steel (e.g. Henkels "eversharp" line). At least in some cases, I am certain that the serrations are deliberately used to increase edge life.

I understand that one does not literally beat plate armor with a sword as though it were a mallet, but I also think that some of the moves used with these swords would be perfect for dulling a fine edge, if it were present (I'm thinking of edge-to-flat parries, as well as takedowns where the edge might slide along plate). I know that if I have made my edge too acute, an edge to flat strike will roll a small part of the edge.

Have you done any testing where the straight edged swords were noticeably worn at the edge? Edge geometry is exactly what I'm talking about. I think that the serrations might serve to preserve edge geometry that might otherwise be too delicate for a sword used in war against harder armor types. In other words, one could have knife-sharp edges in between areas that are sword-sharp without having to worry about getting them chewed up in use.

I'm hoping someone can find some good pictures, but as Fabrice said, it might be hard to know what the original geometry was after all these years.

[Robin Palmer]

I would draw your attention to the off topic forum page four which has a thread on flambard blades. It is of note that the true flambard's demise co-incided with the decline in armour. Later blades had scollops ground into edges these would have had no value against plate but would have been lethal against cloth and flesh. Most I have seen are sabres indicating the use of a slashing cut which would maximise the effect.

[Fabrice Cognot]

Ok, back from the museum :


I can tell you these wavy blades have sharp edges all over - not razor sharp, but definitely sword-sharp. No difference at all between convex and concave areas, and the edge seemed original, as grind marks tended to indicate (ie no alteration due to preservation/cleaning).

I'll try to post pics later.

[Jerry Knox]

So if large flammard bladed swords were tied to armor use, and scalloped edges were later used to increase cutting effects on unarmored targets, could it stand to reason that the flammard shape, which has scalloped edges, but with a profile that is more resistant to heavy impact (the flammard shape does not have stress risers like cut-out scallops would cause) could have been trying to achieve the same effect on soft targets while standing up to armor as well?

I wonder what some testing with a mild steel "sword surrogate" could tell us about this...

I can't wait to see the pictures, Fabrice!

[Fabrice Cognot]

The pics didn't turn out as nice as I hoped for, with me jumping over the barriers and all, but I still hope you'll see what is to see. Fortunately enough, we have 3 different typoes of 'flammarded' blades : one forged on is entire length, and others ground to shape along various patterns.

But as I said before, I do think that aesthetics, more than efficiency, ruled the things when making such a sword. Well, not totally : a flammarded blade, especialy when ground, weighs far less - and feels as much lighter - than a non-flammarded blade.

[Bill Grandy]

[Fabrice Cognot]

[Jerry Knox]

I have read enough of these discussions to know that we can never definitevely prove that anything was done for any reason centuries ago. (or even weeks ago, for that matter) There are always too many variables where humans are involved.

What I would like to know is whether or not the flame-blade shape works as I think it does. If it works now, then it would have worked then, regardless of whether it was intentional, or even desired.

On the flammards you have used, Bill, did you do anything that might have blunted the edges of the swords you were using? I'd be interested to see the relative effect on a smooth and waved edge of hard use.

Does blunting of the smooth edge even occur at all when used roughly? If it does occur, does the flammard dull to a lesser extent inside the scallops? If so, then do the sharper scallops help in cutting softer targets, relative to the evenly dulled smooth edge?

A lot of ifs, but definitely testable. I think the main question is whether or not the usage encountered within one encounter, battle, etc would be enough to dull a sword edge (otherwise, there's no benefit, as you can always sharpen between battles). I know from using and making knives that if dulling occurs on the smooth edge, the serrated edge will dull less with the same use, and will cut better afterwards.

So: Anyone know whether or not a cutting sword might be significantly de-edged within one encounter? Think worst case, in the context of the zweihanders, as I'm thinking it more likely that a civilian rapier would be given expensive decorative touches than a serious tool of war.

[William J Welch]

[Bill Grandy]

[Jerry Knox]

Thanks for the details. I would have expected a smooth, acute edge to cut the best (razor blades are not serrated, after all). That agrees with my experience as well.

I wonder if waves would help if the blade were softer than we think of swords as being. I remember a feature article a while ago about some selected sword hardnesses, which while not being conclusive, did suggest that perhaps not all swords were as hard as our reproductions are today. I would think that, the softer the steel, the more an edge retention feature might be valuable.

I have accidentally hit a cinderblock before with a 1095 steel sword and found my edge undamaged, so I had suspicions about whether a single fight could really dull swords much. On the other hand, my much softer (but still 1095 steel) machete's edge rolls over all of the time on wet wood, so maybe if the heat treatment were not prioritizing hardness, the edge could use some structural help?

[Jean Thibodeau]

Now I'm fairly sure that serrations are effective on a knife at the scale i.e. serrations per inch typical of a knife, kitchen or folding knives like many of my spydercos.

Serrations seem to make a difference when the knife is sort of dull since dull but serrated blades continue cutting better than a dull strait blade. ( Just my personnal observations and what seems to be commonly believed. There may be some scientific support for this but I don't know any I can quote here ).

The sword " flambard/famberge " serrations or curves can be looked like as being " MACRO " scale serrations and the question would be: Are they also effective at least in a draw cut.

As to scale of serrations I would compare to saw teeth: If one is cutting a thin piece of stock, lets say steel, 1/16" thick compared to a piece of steel 10" thick one needs to choose the optimum number of saw teeth per inch for the teeth to be effective or even work !

With the thin stock a saw blade with a small number of very large teeth will not cut as each tooth will just jamb on the thin plate and not cut. If one uses very fine teeth on the thick stock the fine teeth will cut but with too much binding and wasted effort: A larger tooth but fewer per inch will cut faster with less effort.

So with a sword the relationship of waves per inche(s) would have to be chosen to match the thickness of the target for optimum results, assuming they are effective or are sufficiently more effective than a strait blade to be worth the extra effort to make.

And bottom line they just looked nasty and might have been a style fashion i.e. more aesthetics than enhanced performance.