| myArmoury.com is now completely member-supported. Please contribute to our efforts with a donation. Your donations will go towards updating our site, modernizing it, and keeping it viable long-term.
Last 10 Donors: Daniel Sullivan, Anonymous, Chad Arnow, Jonathan Dean, M. Oroszlany, Sam Arwas, Barry C. Hutchins, Dan Kary, Oskar Gessler, Dave Tonge (View All Donors) |
| Author |
Message |
|
Peter G.
Location: Bad Kreuznach/Germany Joined: 16 Nov 2007
Posts: 78
|
 Posted: Sun 27 Jan, 2008 2:52 am Post subject: |
 |
|
At 80y a musket has enough power to penetrate a targe and clothes behind and do enough damage to stop.
In revolut. france the cuiraisses were supposed to be bulletproof-the specification was no penetration in 3shoots at 30y.
As most of the cuiraisses failed and changing them would have made them to heavy to use the specification was changed to 1 shoot without rangedetails.
It is known that the cavalry rolled their greatcoats and did wear them in a role from left shoulder to right waist-after battle lot of soldiers did find bullets in the roles that had lost so much speed they couldnīt penetrate the greatcoat.
As said in another thread-modern replicas donīt give a good idea of the actual shooting-today you use matching bullets and/or patches-the original bullet was smaller then the bore (~1/20inch) to accelerate reloading-but causing windage which costet lot of hitting power and accuracy.
The doctrin was to open fire at about 50m range-shooting at greater distance was considered a wasted volley-and aiming did play no role at 18/19th cent-it was not trained.
The allowance of cartridges for training was between 6-30 per man/year!!-used for loading practice-the main goal was firespeed not wasting time with aiming
|
|
  |
 |
|
Lin Robinson
|
| Posted: Sun 27 Jan, 2008 12:21 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Daniel Staberg wrote: | The no sights claim may apply to brittish muskets but of the musket models used between 1600 and 1800 by the Swedish army at least 90% have sights mounted. German muskets and calivers manufactured in Suhl during the 17th Century have sights as well as do Dutch weapons import to Sweden durign the first half of the 17th Century.
With regards to target practice Swedish soldiers are noted as training marksmanship in the 1560's and such traingin seems to have been kept up as logn as the trainign standards were enforced. By the late 17th Century there were marksmanship contests as part of each regimental review and the best shots were rewarded and those who failed punished.
Warfare before the mid-late 18th Century was domianted by siege warfare and the "small war", activities in which aimed fire played an important role. Veterans troops were acknolwledged as superior in these activites due to their marksmanship skills. Hence aimed fire was trained by various methods provided the resoruces were available, of course there was alos neglect due to Goverments beign laoht to spend the cash on shot and powder or corrupt officers kept the cash for training themselves. |
Daniel...
That is a very interesting post. I must profess an almost total lack of knowledge about the materiel provided to Swedish troops in the muzzle loading age. None of the references in my firearms library mention Swedish arms and an internet search produced nothing of use. I do have a friend who has a very nice Swedish Mauser that is extremely well-made and accurate and if Swedish muzzle loading firearms were as well-made, then they were among the best in Europe.
You make some interesting points about the need for marksmanship in the Swedish army and at times where small unit actions dominated warfare. My own theory regarding training for marksmanship is that when firearms were first introduced into military formations in significant numbers, marksmanship training was of importance. At that time the firearm was still present in much smaller numbers than the pike and other weapons, and to be effective it was essential that the musketeer produce aimed fire. However, as I am sure you will agree, the smoothbore musket was not going to produce outstanding accuracy regardless of the training and the sights. Inaccuracy beyond a certain range was inherent in this firearm.
As more firearms were introduced into the mix, so that ultimately nearly all troops in the field were so armed, volume of fire could produce sufficient casualties in the enemy so as to lessen or eliminate the need for marksmanship training. Instead you had emphasis on manuever of troops and loading and firing on command, with the bayonet charge being the culmination of the action. Marksmanship training required time and expenditure of expensive ammunition, while a soldier could be trained to load and fire - with blank cartridges, or none at all - fairly easily.
The original post on this thread and the subsequent posts have been centered around - I think - the effects of late 17th century to mid-18th century muskets on Highland troops equipped with targes. As such, the discussion has concentrated on British muskets. My reference library does have extensive information on British, Dutch and French muskets of the period and very few of these arms were equipped with any kind of sight. Of course, if my ideas above are correct there is no need to have sights on these weapons any way.
Finally, the drill manual written by Baron von Stuben for the Continental army contains thousands of words regarding linear tactics, behavior on the march, instructions for officers of various ranks, etc. It has two and one-quarter pages devoted to loading and firing - on command - the musket. This was, of course late 18th century stuff but it does point out that there was no emphasis on marksmanship training in the regular units of the Continetal Army. That, of course, did not apply to the units equipped with rifles.
Lin Robinson
"The best thing in life is to crush your enemies, see them driven before you and hear the lamentation of their women." Conan the Barbarian, 1982
|
|
|
|
|
|
GG Osborne
|
| Posted: Sun 27 Jan, 2008 2:48 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I am surprized that no one has mentioned the one original Jacobite period targe that definitly shows the signs of contact with an approximately .75 caliber projectile. The famous targe of Lochiel of Cameron has a .75 hole in it as well as two smaller holes, possibly from pistols or carbines. A nice picture can be seen in "Swords and Sorrows." Based on that evidence, my guess is that the original .75 sphere was simply partially flattened or or otherwise distorted before hitting flesh, making for a nasty wound.
Further, although many have spoken about sepsis as an eventual cause of death, don't discount blood loss and shock. a 3/4" lead ball even traveling at low muzzel velocity makes a pretty big hole that seeps a lot of fluid!
"Those who live by the sword...will usually die with a huge, unpaid credit card balance!"
|
|
|
|
|
|
Lin Robinson
|
| Posted: Sun 27 Jan, 2008 5:44 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| GG Osborne wrote: | I am surprized that no one has mentioned the one original Jacobite period targe that definitly shows the signs of contact with an approximately .75 caliber projectile. The famous targe of Lochiel of Cameron has a .75 hole in it as well as two smaller holes, possibly from pistols or carbines. A nice picture can be seen in "Swords and Sorrows." Based on that evidence, my guess is that the original .75 sphere was simply partially flattened or or otherwise distorted before hitting flesh, making for a nasty wound.
Further, although many have spoken about sepsis as an eventual cause of death, don't discount blood loss and shock. a 3/4" lead ball even traveling at low muzzel velocity makes a pretty big hole that seeps a lot of fluid! |
You know, I thought about it, but when I sat down to post or reply it never crossed my mind. Your points are very well taken. I guess the best advice would be, don't try to take on a guy or guys with a loaded musket(s) with targe and broadsword!
Lin Robinson
"The best thing in life is to crush your enemies, see them driven before you and hear the lamentation of their women." Conan the Barbarian, 1982
|
|
|
|
|
|
James R
|
| Posted: Wed 30 Jan, 2008 10:47 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Lin Robinson wrote: | | GG Osborne wrote: | I am surprized that no one has mentioned the one original Jacobite period targe that definitly shows the signs of contact with an approximately .75 caliber projectile. The famous targe of Lochiel of Cameron has a .75 hole in it as well as two smaller holes, possibly from pistols or carbines. A nice picture can be seen in "Swords and Sorrows." Based on that evidence, my guess is that the original .75 sphere was simply partially flattened or or otherwise distorted before hitting flesh, making for a nasty wound.
Further, although many have spoken about sepsis as an eventual cause of death, don't discount blood loss and shock. a 3/4" lead ball even traveling at low muzzel velocity makes a pretty big hole that seeps a lot of fluid! |
You know, I thought about it, but when I sat down to post or reply it never crossed my mind. Your points are very well taken. I guess the best advice would be, don't try to take on a guy or guys with a loaded musket(s) with targe and broadsword! |
Give your best highland battlecry and charge...and hope you scare them bad enough that they all miss.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
|
All contents © Copyright 2003-2024 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum
|
This is a standard topic