[Chuck Russell]

that sounds great Kelly. i would like to see that when its finished. I've been thinking about a Carolingian kit but couldn't find the right helmet for the job.

[Kelly Powell]

Well then, allow me to pimp my friends business.....Go to knotwolf armory and talk to rich......he's recovering from hand surgery right now(no big deal, will not affect his craftsmanship) and and getting ready for gulf wars, but he has two really nice carolingean styles.

[Scott Eschenbrenner]

[Sean Smith]

Knotwolf has a Carolingian "Kettle" helm that I have been coveting for a while, just cant justify it. It really is the cats *ss.
http://www.knotwolf.com/mambo/images/stories/Carolingian%202a.jpg

Chase, no one is personally attacking you. The school of thought that things should be based on documented finds, or lots of overriding evidence that such a thing existed, even when nothing has been found (the droopy face houndskull comes to mind) is one that Academia has long supported over speculation. Their way is the closest they can come to "proving" how things were. Even experimental archeology tends to get a bad rap, such as the Norse loom (the one where someone took all the pieces, and created something that worked out of it). If 1000 years from now, all that exists is a Delorian, a VW Beetle, and a Corvette, you would see lots of 20th century re-enactors with those (probably mostly Corvettes), and a few trying their best to recreate a Ford Escort, based on what they could figure out from pictures and text. Is it the best overall sampling of what existed? No, but it is what they knew was correct. This is the same reason there are tons of Churburg #13, or Wisby Coat of Plates. The chances that they were at all as popular as they are now is unlikely. Yet, we work from what we know, and with lack of compelling evidence to the contrary, that is what we are left with.

[James R.Fox]

Gentlemen-If having trouble taking a hit from a rattan staff,do what everybody who wore armour did, wear a padded shirt under it.They are easy to make,just take two layers of cloth, sew them vertically into tubes an inch or so wide, and stuff with wool or cotton.You can buy the medieval style at Museum Replicas if you don't want the sore fingers, but I'd say weave your own linin or wool cloth, cut out the patterns and sew away. The torso is one piece with separate arms laced in. We have drawings from the 700-800 period plus a few manuscript descriptions, so fear not, you will be in period. The guys only wearing helms and using shields often wore this armour,their wives and daughters and mistresses could do the weaving, and sewing and it would at least blunt some of the trauma. And of course rich guys who could afford mail wore it under the mail for the same reason. Check Mr Oakshott if you don't believe Me.

[Chad Arnow]

[David Huggins]

Hi James, I'd be very much like to see the drawings for padded shirts for the period 700-8OO as you suggest, and the manuscript descriptions for the period. I must admit that I have no knowledge of their existence for the period within a North Western European context, the only evidence that I know of is conjectural interpretation of hatched and lined figural artwork from bone/ivory and stone carved artifacts.
best regards
Dave[/quote]

[James R.Fox]

Hi Dave-My best source I will have to call the library about, cause I've forgotten the title. It's a history of Illyria (now Albania) where a frozen cemetary was found containing ,I believe it was 6 warrior graves and a chieftan's grave. The warriors had padded coats, the chieftain had a bronze cuirass over his.Also, there is the Scythian and Sarmatian scale armour on a padded coat, made jy boiling cow hoofs untill soft,and then cutting then into slices which were sewn onto a padded coat. That reference is in Herodotus, I will have to find my copy.Both the Illyrian and Scythian-Sarmatian references are for 500-600 BCE.I know the manuscripts you talk about,no-one knows if they are attempts to represent mail or padded coats. Myself, I incline to the most parsimonious solution, that they are padded coats, since very few men of that day could afford mail, while most ranking men had female relatives, servants and slaves in the gynoecium to do sewing and weaving.There are Carolingian manuscript drawings and capitularies about gynaeceums.You know,gotta lock those wimmim-folk up guys.

[Sean Smith]

As hsa been stated before, a good couple of wool tunics (depending on the climate) does wonders by itself under maille. I am not referring to "suit weight" wool, but thick stuff that has been fulled (is that the right verbage?). I am in the SCA, and though I represent a bit later timeperiod, all I wear is a gambeson, which is 2 layers of heavy canvas with 4-6 layers of quilters batting,with the required hard protection hidden underneath. The next time I will be using raw cotton from futon makers. I think most people who wear leather lamellar in the SCA either A) dont care, B) don't know better C) know better but think of some way to get around it (I was part of the Vangarian Guard, even though my persona is 8th century!). You can only lead a horse to water...

[James R.Fox]

Dave and Sean padded armour of wool or linen is the simplest to make and easiest to use for agricultural people.As for the shirts being floppy,like in the Carolingan manuscripts, they would be if they were just thick woolen pads stiffened with linen canvas.George Cameron Stone illustrates cotton padded shirts, but I doubt wool would be much different,even backed by linen canvas or thin leather.The Carolingans did have flax to make linen canvas. Come to think of it, I doubt the idea of very thick shirts or coats was a new one given a north European climate and no central heating.

[Sean Smith]

There is a difference between what you seem to be advocating and what I said. This is how I see our two posts, please correct me if I am wrong.

A) You said that the technology and production was there to have quilted armour of linen or wool, and therefore speculate that they had something akin to an aketon/gambeson that was worn under maille.

B) I said that they could wear two or three tunics (or one, depending on pain tolerance and material) and be fine. I was stating that they did not need to be quilted together, or connected in any way. That way, the tunics are doing "double duty" as it were. There is a subtle difference between our statements.

I think that a majority of fighters did manage to have munitions-grade armour, since it was their livelyhood. Kind of like getting an accounting job, but not justifying pencils. We tend to put a spin on it, from our re-enacting background, as we are unable to use these items in our daily life, and therefore have to pay for essentials first, and them second. In my mind, this was their "car payment".

Either way, we are getting into a new category. We can either ressurect a "Viking Gambeson" thread, or start a new one, but lets let this one get back on track.

[James R.Fox]

Sean-you are right-we are off topic. I will just go back to what I said at first, the only feasible leather lamilar armour I ever heard of and could dig up sources on was far eastern, or central asian.It was worn by the russian steppe nomads when they could get it, or get the lacquer to make it.It existed in viking times, but the vikings (Rus) only had vague contact with the people who used it and their frankish equipment was far better.

[Dan Dickinson]

[David Huggins]

Hi,

I think I've said before on this forum that I have found from my own 20+ years as a re-enactor of the Viking Age, that I have found a couple of tunics under maille has afforded adequate protection during what I believe you guys call 'live steel' combat . But even though we tend to fight in a robust manner that be could be described as full contact (minus headshots), I think what Europeans have come to call 'Huskarl' style, we are not aiming to realy inflict true injury in the same manner as some one fighting to protect his life. The only differance I've found to wearing in the past a lightly padded leather undertunic is how quickly you get hot in a very little time even during short bursts of physical activity.
Best
Dave

[Kelly Powell]

That is why you see a lot of lamellar in themidwestern states .......during event season the average temp is around 90 deg with around 85% humidity.....And lets face it we sca folk on average are not shining examples of cardio fitness and weight control. ....lamellar does a great job of protecting you and there is generally enough air passage to fight in it all day......Of course somebody will be able to site a specific example where this is wrong....but on the whole, I believe my observation is correct.

[Vaclav Homan]

I view that they have not review about slavonic archaeology. Metal lamelas was typical for nomads as well arrows without shank, sabres, palaches, strait pike, asiatic bow. Slavonic warriors have had padding coat and leg, lether helmet, shield without metal umbo, bow. Slavonic nobility ring panzer, lamelar armour (more in Rusland) sax ,swords from Rhine or domestic (there are many evidens for domestic damascus sword: Piaskovsky, Koloczin, Pleiner..) and metal helmet.
The question: leather lamelar in Russia?
I don´t know in this time to say yes but it is possible. Metal lamelas was expensive and alternatives as horn and leather, but why leather lamelas when I can have leather coat with line or wool.
Common effect is to use opponent wearpons (nomads or franks).
There is very nice lamelas from kazachstan, Kumans (in Russia known as Polovec) warrior in desert, identical armour we have documented in central europa
http://tgorod.ru/index.php?topgroupid=2&g...ntentid=36

[David Huggins]

Hi Vaclav,
Your response was just what I was hoping for, still is the lamellar of the desert warrior leather or metal, what is the date?It would be better if I read and understood Russian, sorry. Kazakstan I think would be pushing it for evidence of Russ Varangi wearing leather. Having said that it seems that a lot of Polish/Slavonic re-enactors, perhaps not portraying Vikingr but Slav warriors, are the ones wearing leather lamellar, but this appears to becoming increasingly adopted by N.Western Viking re-enactors.
Again thank you for your response.
best
Dave

[James Barker]

[Vaclav Homan]

David you can be lucky I have found englisch version of metal lamelar excavation http://www.geocities.com/kaganate/bekbeke.html.
In Czech I know peoles with leather lamelas but the livinhistory company disallow using this leather lamelas.
Using leather lamelas is disutative for Slavian and Vikings but not impossible. For Slavian and Vikings are leather lamelas not typical and mass using for historical fencing is not good.
Slavian has fought with shield axe and lance without armour (Bizantian autors) .Nobilities have ring or metal lamelas.
A cotton was common in late medievale but early medieval was not common.

[Steven H]