[Christopher Gregg]

James, I must disagree with a couple of points here:

Quote, "Kenneth MacAlpin declared himaelf King of Scotland around 900 BCE.So being Halstedt Celts, the clothing worn by Mel Gibson is perfectly correct"

Kenneth Alpin was king of Scots and Picts in the mid 800's AD, not BCE. I know because he's a direct ancestor of mine. You're about 1000 years off there. Also, I have never heard that the Halstadt Celts have ever been proven to be the direct ancestors of the Irish Scotti tribe. I'd like to know your source for this.

Quote, "He's wearing a shirt with a blue check pladie wrapped over it. If you remember the movie there is honeymoon scene where his wife is in her shift helping him wrap his pladie over his shirt"

Actually, in that scene, Mel's sweetie is wrapping the "plaid", over his naked body - no shirt on Mel at all, and she is very much wrapping the fabric in a kilt-like manner, covering his waist area first and foremost, but making a strange sash-like criss-cross across his torso, very much like how we Scots wear our fly plaids or sash plaids nowadays for formal wear.

Mel Gibson (and most of the other Highland Scots in "Braveheart") was absolutely wearing the equivalent of a "Breacan Feilde", or Great Kilt, comprised of a large blanket of tartan over a tunic-like shirt. This plaid-over-shirt combination is known to date to the early 17th century at the earliest, not to the late 13th century. Do not cunfuse an Irish Brat over a Leine to be the same thing as a plaid over a shirt - the styles are separated by several centuries. The reason Mel Gibson decreed that the Scots in Braveheart would wear the Belted Plaid is to appeal to Scots who would see the film, not to illustrate a historical look, IMO.

[James R.Fox]

Hi chris-you're right, I blew the Kenneth MacAlpin date, I was thinking of two things at once.However,I did think he became king of Scotland around 900 ad, not 8oo ad, As for the rest, we are basically talking about wrapping styles, which were considersbly different between tribes and peoples. For examples, Augustus was so scandalized by rhe Greek version worn just around the shoulders and chest he tried to ban it in public.Noble Romans never went with their legs bare except on military duty, otherwise they wore skirts to the ankles,as you can see by any statue,This proved they didn't work with their hands. As for Hallstadt Celts vs La Tene Celts in Ireland, I know Hallstadt celts were the first CELTIC settlers of Ireland, and the La Tene Celts came much later.I say celtic because their were others, Ireland was in direct contact with the continent in the middle stone age on. I will have to dig up the sources, I don't own the book on late European pre-history that covers the migrations from Russia into Europe at that period, I know at least one of the books it's a study of the Cattle Raid of Cooley, pointing out that Cuchulain lived in a purely hallstadt culture by the clothing and arms described.I'll look it up and get back.

[Terry Crain]

Hello,

I believe Del Tin still makes a version of this type of falchion, which is basically what the prop sword seems to be based upon sans pommel and crossguard.


It is shown here: http://www.arts-swords.com/item/DT-DT5132.asp

Terry

[James R.Fox]

Chris-Just a note while I'm digging through books. Any good on-line encycopedia,Encarta, Wikipedia,Encyclopedia Britannica, will give you the basics. The group of peoplrs that moved from the Ukraine to Europe were all hallstedt culture, but not all Celt, Celts were just one of the tribes. The Latins ,Dorian ,Greeks,Illyrians, were all members of the hallstadt culture. this is why the had so many things in common ,they were all late bronze age pastorialistsThe hallstadt culture was also known as the urnfield culture because they all practiced cremation plus burial of the ashes in fancy clay ot bronze urns, in large cemetaries.The Hallstadt culture eas divided into 4 stages,a,d,c,d. A and B were bronze age, Cand D were iron age. The culture was also divided into Eastern and Western Halstadt, The Western Hallstadt were based in Eastern France and the Rhineland, but covered all of France Britian and Ireland as a military aristocracy. Like I said, this is general, w/o much in the way of specific source,for which I'm still digging. The Encyclopedia Britannica is a valid source, but you have to subscribe to it to get the full resources on-line.

[Terry Crain]

What is the significance of the Celtic history lesson to the sword in question? I must be missing the point of this thread.

[James R.Fox]

Sorry Terry we arer off topic, and maybe should move. We were discussing correctness of Mel Gibson's costume in the picture posted. I say it's correct, Chris says it isn't.

[David Sutton]

[John Love]

[Chad Arnow]

[John Love]