[Daniel Staberg]

[Daniel Staberg]

[Gordon Frye]

Daniel;

Sorry about being absent from this thread for so long, but thank you for that proper translation of d'Aubigne! I too had wondered about it, but thought, well, buff coats DO come into play not too long afterwards, so perhaps they were...

Per the translation of "Blouses" I would submit that these are the garments which today are often referred to as "Waffenrocks" or based doublets, the kind with a heavy pleated skirt protecting the body from waist to knees. The cassocks spoken of later as "small round bell jackets" would be of the standard sort, which in fact do bell out rather at the hem, shown in the Lant Roll of Sir Philip Sidney's funeral procession of 1587. There are plenty of woodcuts from the period showing this sort of cassock being worn over armour. Considering that it was about the height of the Little Ice Age, small wonder! Here's an illustration from the Lant Roll of Foote cassocks, which would be a bit shorter than for Horse, but the idea is the same.


Also some Cavalry trumpeters in cassocks, though they are getting somewhat longer here than was, I believe, generally the case.


I would have to agree too with the idea that the use of heavy columns probably came from the need to put less well armoured and horsed material in the rear ranks, rather than trying to put them into the front ranks of the gendarmerie. And being armed with pistols rather than lances was of benefit, actually. A lance is of little use at slow speed, or in the rear ranks where it cannot be brought to bear. On the other hand, a pistol is as deadly if discharged from a halt as it is at full speed on a horse, and any hommes d'armes making it through the front ranks of the column would be dispatched by those in the rear ranks.

Cheers!

Gordon

[David Evans]

I'm interested by those casocks, first decent sized picture I've seen. As I understand it the cassocks were made for the funeral of Sir Philip Sydney, an overrated "Hero" of the Elizabethen Court. There's either no sign of any fastening at the front, or lots of small buttons thro the sides do appear to be split, yet the cassock is close fitting enough to wear a falling band over the collar whilst the sleeves are massive!


I've also spotted this quote
"....do furnyshe and set furth warde on light horseman well harnised as apperteyneth, wth a redde coate made of the Cassok fason, and he to be at berwick the vijth day of August or assone aftr as he possible can, there to serve the Kyng as he shalbe further appoynted. "

The letter is from Edward, Earl of Derby to Sir henry ffaryngton dated 1st August. It's from 1547, when the Lord Protector. Somerset was invading Scotland.

[Paul Caspall]

Thanks for the clarification on the cassocks Daniel, and thanks for getting in touch with Gordon re: this thread and my interest in it.

Cheers!

Paul

(the Huguenot Cuirassier thread lives on!)

[Gordon Frye]

[Daniel Staberg]

Gordon,

I'm afraid I'll have to disagree with you one this one as the author of the work from which the image is taken calls "figur 21." a "Patronenhälter" i.e "cartridge holder". It is however a very poor drawing, without the text I certainly was unable to guess what it was.

Cheers
Daniel

[Gordon Frye]

Daniel;

Well, I guess we'll have to agree to respectfully disagree on this. I cannot imagine how the drawing would be construed to look like a cartridge box of any known sort, and my own thought is that the author mistook it, or the publisher mixed up illustrations and descriptions, etc. But, I've been known to be wrong before, I'm afraid!

Do you know when was the book the illustration is from was published? If it's 19th Century then I'd be cautious about it. I sometimes have serious reservations about some of the Victorian's ideas...

Cheers!

Gordon

[Daniel Staberg]

Gordon,

The image is taken from Suttner's "Reiterstudien" (indeed a 19th century work) but the entire image is a copy of a engraving in Dilich's 'Kriegsbuch' written 1606 (but published 1689) and Suttner is merely quoting Dilich's orginal text for the image when he calls the thing a 'patronenhälter'. My guess is that the engraver hired by Dilich made a poor job of interpreting the authors wishes and the error was never corrected.

Cheers
Daniel

[Gordon Frye]

Ah, well, that makes sense, then.

Cheers!

Gordon

[David Evans]

Out of sheer hope....

The cassocks worn by the London Trained Bands made for the funeral of Sir Philip Sydney were made for the occasion supposedly in black. Does anyone have any source that confirms this? As I've seen nothing anywhere to confirm this.

[Gordon Frye]

David;

I hadn't heard of the funeral cassocks being black, and the "look" of the Lant Roll doesn't really support it, but that's not really saying much. If it were the case though, it certainly would have made for an expensive progression!

Cheers!

Gordon

[David Evans]

[Gordon Frye]

David, you never cease to amaze me with the wonderful sources you manage to come up with! How nifty!

Thanks!

Cheers!

Gordon

[David Evans]

Google books, a reasonable collection of books, British History Online and a good University library!

if you know any Costume researchers then point them at this http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=hGoNAAAAIA...#PPA424,M1

It's record of Sir George Chatsworth's trip as "Ambassr Extraordinarie unto our good sister, the Infanta Archduchess of
Austria, to condole for ye decease of or late good brother ye Archduke of Austria," in 1621. What's interesting is that over 4 pages he details his expenditure of clothing, with lots of little details, like the 23 dozen button holes on a cassock of black bayes, that's 276 buttons....!

Back on thread. If the 1580's quote that bwas thought to be the earlist mention of Buff coats and isn't.....What is the earlist? Is there anything in the Swedish sources?