[Jeff A. Arbogast]

Since the El Cid movie was brought up showing some flail use, don't forget the jousting scene where the Cid gets the living daylights beaten out of him by the other knight riding at him whipping his flail around backhanded and knocking him for a loop several times after he's unhorsed. One of the better jousting scenes I think.
There is also a more obscure movie Charlton Heston did called "The War Lord." Aside from the typical corn of such movies of the era, in the beginning he knocks a Frisian chieftan literally off his feet several times using the same backhanded whipping motion with his flail before he's finally knocked off his horse by a well-aimed shot in the chest with the Frisian'a axe. After that the sword comes out, and the fight continues. All in all a pretty good combat sequence, especially for the time.
Oh yeah, and there was the final combat scene in the old "Ivanhoe" movie, where Ivanhoe, after getting nailed several times by the flail, manages to get the chain wrapped around the shaft of his axe, yanking Brian de Bois-Gilbert off his horse and then axing him. Not a bad fight scene either, although the flail is called a "mace and chain." Not real sure what the distinctions between the names are though.

[Mark Hanna]

Don't forget the opening scene in Roman Polanski's Macbeth were a guy is going around checking to see if soldiers are really dead and when one starts to move he starts wacking him in the back with a ball and chain and ever widening pool of red.

Yes we got some good pictures I will post on photo bucket and put a link on a hussite thread. Had a good time and met some other nice people from the myArmoury site.

Mark

[J Gerg]

[Jean Henri Chandler]

[A.A. Boskaljon]

[quote="J Gerg"]

[William P]

regarding the nunchaku and other 'flail like weapons'

the nunchuku, so people know, while its said to be an agricultural thresher, theres good reason to suspect the weapon was introduced by the chinese, who had, for a fair while, utilized a massive variety of flexible impact weapons, the chinese have also, for a long time possessed other okinawan weapons, the crutch, otherwise known as the tonfa, is another example,
the flexible weapons ones i know of at least are

chain whip (essentially a handle with a a a long chain of iron pieces, usually its about 3-4 feet long, and known also as the 9 section staff, but there is also 3 section chain whip, plus 5 and 7 section chain whip,

which brings us neatly to the weapons like the nunchuku,
we have the 3 section staff, it consists of three, 2 foot long pieces of wood attatched to each other by a couple of chain links, so what you have is a staff, thats made of 3 sections,

theres the 2 section staff as well, with a couple of varients, theres the long and short version, which is pretty much exactly the same as the european 2 handed threshing flail made famous by the hussites.
there is also evidence of their being 2 section staffs that had handles of equal length i.e nunchuku

however the most unicrazy chinese impact weapon easily has to be the meteor hammer, its essentially a big metal ball the size of a large orange or a grapefruit, attatched to a 3-5 meter long rope its used by winding it around joints and when unwound, results in alot of force, but its a hard weapon to use really well from what ive heard
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZMM0ESgXrA
many of you will remember such a weapon from kill bill, wielded by gogo yuburi against the bride.


i realise this thread is about european maces and flails, but considering the huge variety of chinese impace weapons, you cant help but mention some of them.

[Richard B. Price]

its rather odd that this topic popped up again so suddenly, I just began construction of a flail of my own, if simply for the fact that I don't already have one. I'm not shooting for any sort of historic authenticity, but more of a "I'm carrying hell's fury on a chain' kinda thing. It's obviously not done yet, I still need to weld the head and chain, stain and leather wrap the handle, but at least you get the idea. Overall the chain is roughly a foot long, the handle is 12 inches and the two steel plates are 5 X5, a little more than 7 inches across, when turned. Should be deadly when I'm done.

[Thomas Peters]

Concerning the use of flails.
The group I am in does allow the use of flails in combat with one key condition. A quality helm must be worn by all combatants!!! I personally knocked out one of our members with a flail while practicing at about 1/4 speed and hitting him in the back of the head. He ducked and this weapon is very hard to stop or pull a blow.
I can not say how historically accurate our flail is. The construction of the flail we use has an 18 inch handle, 20 inches of chain (plastic for safety reasons) and the ball is a 4inch Nerf ball with a golf ball core and is wrapped in duct tape.
This weapon creates an incredible amount of force when swung at combat speed. It will wrap around a shield with ease and has a relatively quick recovery time after a solid hit. It is very "aimable" and with practice the user can become very adept at placing the ball where he or she wants to. You can change direction with it but only to a limited degree. It is a great Shock and Awe weapon to start a battle with if you are in an open area but in tight quarters it is as dangerous to your friends as it is to your enemies.
The biggest disadvantage of the weapon is that once the ball is stopped it is just so much weight on the end of a chain on a stick. Also, it is an open area weapon and is not good for close in combat or for combat in a confined space, and as stated before it is as dangerous to the user as it is to the person it is being used on.
The best defense against this weapon is to disrupt the movement of the ball and get in close to the combatant using it. Once in close it is not effective because the user can not get enough momentum behind the swing to make it effective.
The above comments are for the flail design that we use only; but, after reading the posts on this subject and looking at the pictured examples I do believe I will be making some new flails and trying them out.
I will let you know how things turn out.

[Jean Thibodeau]

The learning curve must be very hazardous if using a real one, so be very very careful.

[David Hohl]

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but Richard, with a handle the same length as the chain, don't you stand a fair chance of hitting yourself in the hand or arm with the head?

[Richard B. Price]

This is very True David, I suspect extreme caution will be adviced with its use. If that doesnt work, there are always longer or shorter handles.

[James Head]

Sorry to be a Debbie Downer, but somebody is going to get hurt if you continue.

The short handled / long chain flail is most likely a late Renaissance invention which was employed from horseback.

Trying to use a 'real' one while standing on the ground is not going to turn out well. :-(

[Richard B. Price]

easy fix making the handle longer and the chain shorter, like I said its not completed yet, I still have alot of wiggle room

[Allen Foster]

Looking at all the pictures, it occurred to me that there was a big variance in the size and mass of the ball (spike) end of the flail. I've played around with my A&A flail on several occasions and I've always thought that the weapon would have been awkward unless the person had the strength to weld it properly. In addition to the length of the chain being a factor, it looks like size and mass of the ball was important too. The flails with balls that have hollow centers would have had less impact power, but would have been much lighter and faster to use. It makes me wonder if the perfect flail for each individual depended directly on their size, strength and stature and that's the reason there is such a wide variance in the size, mass and chain length of the flails. Hmmm

[Thomas Peters]

Richard,
From the picture you posted it looks like you are using a head for your flail that is like the head of a flange mace. That is one I have not seen before and is rather intriguing.
From my own experience be extremely careful with the flail chain being the same length as the handle. The replica flail I have has a chain that is longer than the handle which helps to keep you from smashing your own fingers. A shorter chain would also have the same benefit. Also make sure the chain is very well secured to the handle and flail head. You do not want the chain or flail head to come off while you are swinging it.
As a fighter in our medieval group I have used a padded flail based on the replica I have and have also practiced with the replica. I will give you the same advice I give the other fighters in my group that want to use the flail.
"The head on the end of the chain is like a bullet after it leaves the barrel of a gun. It travels until it hits something or until its momentum stops. It is as dangerous to the person swinging it as it is to the person it is being swung at"
Be careful and have fun

[Richard B. Price]

thanks for the tip Thomas, it is based on a flanged mace, i made several of them a couple years back, with the same methodology. I have already turned another handle for it making one 2ft in length, with the short chain. As for securing the head and chain, I will be welding them, with the eye bolt a full 12 inches long secured in the handle, I have also epoxied and pinned it through, though the aren't visible in the picture. I knew this one was going to present some challenges, which is why I tend to over engineer everything i make.

[Ben Bouchard]

It surprising seeing the lack of languettes or other protective measures on many of the spiked flails. I would rather expect them to end up chewing up their own handles over time.

[David Gaál]

These were "peasant" weapons (next to straightened scythes and every agricultural tool which could be used as weapon) but how common were such weapons in an army?
How common was recruiting peasants for war?
And what percent of the army was equiped by such weapons?
I know that to these questions could be answered differently from battle to battle but if I see such large amount of these weapons like in the Landeszeughaus in Graz and that big mass of "low" quality and guess not tailor-made armour I would think that the wars were no more the privilege of nobleman. I feel that the increasing number of such weapons lies in a structural change of the society in the 16-17th century. Could this be right?

[William P]

http://xlegio.ru/ancient-armies/armament/ruse...rontation/

in here is proof that the khazars, and the rus have been using flails since the 8th century.

here is a translation of the passage from the website translated from russian in google translate (its the block of text just above the pictures for those who want the original text)

"Flails in the complex weapons Khazars (an odd translation) have been known since the beginning of the VIII century. They are divided into two types by the method of suspension: flails and flails with an eye to the longitudinal through hole. Flails with a longitudinal through hole just hung on a strap and can be used as horsemen and foot soldiers. Flails with an eye fastened with straps to a wooden handle. Such a bludgeon used by horsemen. The most common type among them - egg-shaped bone bludgeons with an iron rod inside the 10. Typical examples of this type, made from moose antlers were found in graves Gochevskogo burial ground (Belovsky District, Kursk.). One of them was found during excavations of DY Samokvasova (Mound 51), the second - Expedition GY Starodubtsev (Mound 30: Figure 2). It should be noted, and the fact that both the bone "cavalry" dagger was found in the mounds, containing female burials. "

according to the diagram of the object withthe scale bar, the thing was ROUGHLY 4cm wide at the widest point and approximately 5-7cm long, not including the iron ring used to attatch it to the strap.

though i somewhat question the amount of damage such a small head, one made of bone, which isnt exactly a very dense material, combpared to iron or bronze, would be able to deliver to anyone not completely unclothed, and i also wonder how many hits before the bone shatters upon contact with a shield or helmet or something.

[Graham Shearlaw]

war has never been the privilege of a nobleman.
picking what you do in war time has been and stills the privilege of the upper class.
where flail a "peasant" weapon?

most "peasants" will have use the best weapon thay could get there hands on.
a flails is not a great main weapon but as a back up it is a great inprovement over a dagger.