Scale armor -- myArmoury.com

Antal László · Posted: Sat 08 Mar, 2008 12:29 pm Post subject: Scale armor

Greetings fellows!

I would like to ask you about the armor of the second guy from the right. Thats some kind of scale armor, isn't it? Did somethng like that exist?

James R.Fox · Posted: Sat 08 Mar, 2008 7:11 pm Post subject:

Yes it did Antal. It first became popular in Europe with the Roman Lorica Sqamata, and was used off and on throughout the medieval period. See Mr Oakshott's Archeology of Weapons

Antal László · Posted: Sun 09 Mar, 2008 6:23 am Post subject:

Kenneth Scott · Posted: Sun 09 Mar, 2008 8:59 am Post subject:

I guess the question is in relation to medieval armor? Well if its in general, scale armor has been in use for a thousand years before AD. The Philistines are said to have had bronze scale armor, I think theres some carvings in an Egyptian temple depicting that.

Antal László · Posted: Sun 09 Mar, 2008 9:56 am Post subject:

Adam Bodorics · Industry Professional

I can't post pictures from here, but search for the Saint George statute in Prague, that has a very nice scale armour on it, with much, much smaller scales. Some theories say that it's of hungarian origins.

Chuck Russell · Posted: Sun 09 Mar, 2008 2:38 pm Post subject:

i believe this guy is being something 10th century thru early 13th century. i would say anywhere from Italy to Byzantium. There are lots of frescoes and paintings of scale stuff there.

Antal László · Posted: Sun 09 Mar, 2008 2:49 pm Post subject:

Tim Lison · Posted: Sun 09 Mar, 2008 3:11 pm Post subject:

The scale this person is wearing seems to be made of horn, not metal. That is why it has different color scales. I remember an article on how to make horn scale armor being posted somewhere, but I can't seem to remeber where. I tried a search but didn't find anything. Maybe someone else can remeber where to find it. As I recall it was fairly inexpensive but kind of laborious to make.

Antal László · Posted: Sun 09 Mar, 2008 3:31 pm Post subject:

Shawn Shaw · Posted: Sun 09 Mar, 2008 3:56 pm Post subject:

You've hit on one of my favorite types of armour. As others have said, it was in use across a range of cultures and times. The scales were made of tinned iron (typical for squamata), bronze, brass, horn, hardened leather, and maybe other materials as well. The scales on his cuirass seem pretty large compared to hisotrical examples of metal squamata but that may just be because they are (apparently) of bone. The armour is typically made by sewing scales to a strong backing garment made of canvas weight linen, possibly reinforced with leather. The scales were also generally sewn together.

The general thought is that scale armour was more effective than maille at diffusing the force of blunt trauma but had some vulnerability to upward thrusts. The weird thing to me has always been, if this last bit is true, why was scale armour generally reserved for cavalry (e.g. the greek cataphracti, some roman cavalries)? Just a side thought...

Here are some links to more info on scale armour...enjoy. If you find any more, let me know...I'm "in the market" as it were.

http://www.larp.com/legioxx/squamata.html

http://antiquity.ac.uk/ProjGall/Pre2003/McCarthy/mccarthy.html

http://www.redrampant.com/roma/armor.html

http://www.io.com/~beckerdo/other/ScaleArmorII/ScaleArmorII.html

Steven H · Posted: Sun 09 Mar, 2008 4:28 pm Post subject:

Scale armour does not seem to have been big in Western Europe around the period depicted by these folks. The farther east you go the more common it becomes. I think that helm style is also more common in Eastern Europe.

The scales look like shiny metal to me. They look like they are reflecting light and ground and that is what's causing the variation in color.

As to scale armour being vulnerable to thrusts I am dubious of this. I've seen no contemporary evidence to support it. The scales should be tight enough that slipping a blade up and in between is difficult.

Why do cavalry wear scale armour? Because they can. The cost of such armour is high, so generally the only people who can afford it can also afford horses.

Cheers,
Steven

Antal László · Posted: Mon 10 Mar, 2008 5:21 am Post subject:

Antal László · Posted: Mon 10 Mar, 2008 5:50 am Post subject:

Shawn Shaw · Posted: Mon 10 Mar, 2008 6:32 am Post subject:

Evidence for the use of scale in the medieval period is scarce. I have heard, but cannot find good documentation for, that the anglo saxons of the 5th-7th centuries may have made some use of scale armour in Britain. This is still pre-medieval, though. I would be comfortable saying that scale was at least present in dark ages Britain (though even more rare than maille) but beyond that point, I haven't heard of any source citing the use of scale armour.

Here's a blurb on some 2nd C scale found near Hadrian's Wall, at Carlisle:
http://www.archaeology.org/0107/newsbriefs/armor.html

If you do come across any verifiable medieval examples, that would be quite interesting.

Antal László · Posted: Mon 10 Mar, 2008 6:57 am Post subject:

Shawn, I've found a lot of informaton about russian arms and armor from later period. Here is the link: http://xenophon-mil.org/rushistory/medievalar...Bakhterets

It seems, that the russians still used scales in combination with mail in the 16th century. Not exactly what we are looking for, but may be interesting reading.

Hanns Wiechman · Posted: Mon 10 Mar, 2008 11:49 am Post subject:

Has there been any definitive answer as to the armor that Bishop Odo was wearing during the Norman Conquest? 1066 is definitely medieval time period and I'm remember reading about him wearing scale armor but have never read any definitive confirmation or seen any archaeological proof for this type of armor during the time period. I'm interested in European medieval use of scale as well but haven't found anything concrete as to confirm what I've read. Cheers,
Hanns

Brandon Minton · Posted: Mon 10 Mar, 2008 12:40 pm Post subject:

Antal,
When I look at the 2nd guy from the right in your picture, I instantly see a Siculo-Norman knight.

http://www.essentialnormanconquest.com/encycl...armour.htm

note the faceplate here:
http://www.totalwar.org.pl/gallery/The%20Normans%20-08.jpg

http://www.doyle.com.au/images/normans.jpg

From my reading (memory of reading that is), Franks, Scandinavians, Saxons, and esp the Byzantine empire used scale maille. Note that the rest of the Mediterranean was influenced by these groups so the elite would have access to the scale style of armor. North-Western European warriors were prone to try out new styles as they were very adventurous peoples. In fact, that is the nature of Germanic warriors whether from the Migration era onward throughout Norman expansion. New styles were constantly sent back home. Then know that scale styles were seemingly very popular with the Byzantines (we find scale armor all the way back to ancient times, esp old steppe peoples like Sarmatians and Scythians affecting Byzantium culture down the road). Combine that with the knowledge that Norseman (Russ, Danes, Swedes), Saxon (Varangian Guard), and Italo-Norman and Siculo-Normans all interacted heavily with the Byzantine empire and you can be sure that a number of these warriors wore the heroic and exotic scale mail, as well as Lamellar and regular maille of course.

That's my $.02

M. Eversberg II · Posted: Mon 10 Mar, 2008 2:19 pm Post subject:

Brandon, I am suspicious of any source that uses "ring maille" and "scale maille" as actual names for armours. Smacks of DnD influence.

M.

Antal László · Posted: Tue 11 Mar, 2008 4:02 pm Post subject:

Ok, so scale armor in medieval period was used in eastern Europe and further to the east and middle east. After the norman conquests probably also in other parts of europe, where norman influence was present, but there is no archeological evidence for that.
I decided to conitnue my search on the siculo-norman line. I've found the website of a reenactor, quite interesting, there are some period depictings. Here is the link: http://www.fiefetchevalerie.com/fief/?siculo-norman-miles-c-1186
For example see the attached picture, but thats lamellar. I would like to see period painting, fresco or sculpture what proofs the usage of metal scale armor with that kind of construction what is in the photo in my first post.