[Lafayette C Curtis]

I've been going over a number of fantasy armor illustrations and noticed something funny: they frequently match a full harness of plate with either a great helm (the barrel or sugarloaf type, not the jousting pillbox/frogmouth) or something that looks like a cross between a great helm and an Italian barbute (imagine what's essentially a Corinthian helmet plopped on top of a medieval armor). This trend made me curious about one thing:

Does anybody know of actual historical illustrations that match great helms with battlefield suits of plate from the period after the great helm was no longer the most popular form of "heavy" head protection? The Features article say that the great helm survived well beyond the 1350s and even into the 15th century, but I'm not sure whether this survival referred only to the modified jousting form or to the older barrel/sugarloaf form as well.

[Lawrence Parramore]

Well the Pembridge type is often talked of as later than 1350, Having looked at the tomb it used to hang above the one shown under his head is of an early form of 'Frog Mouthed' Helm and the effigy shows no way of attaching the chains to the helm, I believe the Black Prince effigy does not show chains either, though does have a Pembridge type under his head.

There is talk of effigys sometimes being stylized to show earlier armour .

Lawrence

[Lafayette C Curtis]

Duh. I guess I should have been more specific. All right, then; I'll restrict my request to great helms being worn on top of a battlefield suit of plate from the 1350s or later.

[Randall Moffett]

Lafayette,

There seem to be lingering of Great Helm use with plate armour of the current time. In Italian artowrk in particular this is show with state of the art plate defences on the body with flat and round top great helms. D. Nicolle simply thinks this was the artists fault but others indicate it was still in common use. I have found artwork of german's in full armour and with great helms till late1360s. Italians into the 1370s. Seems that fringe places it also helm on longer.

I will try getting some more details for you but work has been hectic today so no promises at the moment. Stupid chapter is a pain...

Have you seen the RA journal article on great helms? http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/maney/a...1/art00002

Best I can think of on the topic. Some great examples of late great helm use in war.

RPM

[Ed Toton]

I don't know the dates, but my understanding is that the great helms continued to be used in a tournament context well after they fell out of use on the battlefield. The frog-mouth helms and the like used for jousting were direct descendants of these.

[Lafayette C Curtis]

Ah. It's too bad that I don't have the financial resources to get a copy of the article. But of course I can afford to be patient.