Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Walloon Swords Reply to topic
Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next 
Author Message
Roger Hooper




Usergroups: 
Donating Members
Premier Members

Location: Northern California
Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 2,054
PostPosted: Wed 30 Jul, 2008 12:14 pm    Post subject: Walloon Swords         Reply with quote

I've become interested in Walloon hilts which were, in general, a mid-seventeenth century Dutch phenomenon. There are slightly different German swords of the same period. Below are pictures of a Walloon that I found at Antiqueweaponstore.com. Here is the accompanying text:

From a well known group of swords made for the Amsterdam Town Guard in the mid-17th Century, this sword is of typical “Walloon” style, with two large side-rings, each filled with a plate featuring pierced stars and circles. Knucklebow with expanded central section, screwed to the ovoid pommel. Large scrolled single quillon stamped with a floret as typically found, thumbring on reverse. Braided iron wire-wrapped grip. Double-edged 31 ˝" blade with single 7" fuller, stamped “SAHAGOM” and with Solingen running wolf mark each side. Amsterdam town mark on ricasso. Very good condition overall with scattered light pitting.



 Attachment: 40.51 KB, Viewed: 14887 times
walloon2a.jpg


 Attachment: 31.25 KB, Viewed: 14879 times
walloon2b.jpg


 Attachment: 41.35 KB, Viewed: 14861 times
WALLOON2C.jpg


 Attachment: 9.88 KB, Viewed: 14839 times
WALLOON2D.jpg


 Attachment: 12.75 KB, Viewed: 14818 times
WALLOON2E.jpg

View user's profile Send private message
Anders Backlund




Usergroups: 
Donating Members

Location: Sweden
Posts: 628
PostPosted: Wed 30 Jul, 2008 2:36 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nice!

I've been wondering: Is there any relation between the Walloon hilt-style and the Walloon ethnic group and/or the region of Wallonia?

I'm partially of Walloon descent myself, so it's an interesting subject for me, Happy

The sword is an ode to the strife of mankind.

"This doesn't look easy... but I bet it is!"
-Homer Simpson.
View user's profile Send private message
Roger Hooper




Usergroups: 
Donating Members
Premier Members

Location: Northern California
Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 2,054
PostPosted: Thu 31 Jul, 2008 8:20 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Anders Backlund wrote:
Nice!

I've been wondering: Is there any relation between the Walloon hilt-style and the Walloon ethnic group and/or the region of Wallonia?

I'm partially of Walloon descent myself, so it's an interesting subject for me, Happy


These swords showed up in the Netherlands around 1640 - 1650. Most were made in the city of Solingen, Germany, for the Dutch. Many have the city mark of Amsterdam on their blades (see the crown mark in the third picture of the first post of this thread). The name Sahagum is also common on these blades.

Nobody knows for sure why they were called Walloon swords. one idea is that the name was coined by 19th century collectors. Another is that the French captured a pile of these swords during a campaign in the Netherlands in 1672-1673, decided to call it an epee' wallone', and then started supplying them to their own soldiers.


Last edited by Roger Hooper on Thu 31 Jul, 2008 8:36 am; edited 1 time in total
View user's profile Send private message
Roger Hooper




Usergroups: 
Donating Members
Premier Members

Location: Northern California
Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 2,054
PostPosted: Thu 31 Jul, 2008 8:29 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here is another sword, that I found at Hessink.nl -

By strict definition, because of the side guards, it may not be a Walloon sword. The website calls it a Velddegen, which roughly translates as - battlefield sword with a straight, two-edged blade. The side guards make it look a little like an Engish Mortuary sword, but the accompanying description says it has the double multi-pierced ring plates and thumb ring that you would expect in a Walloon hilt.

If anyone has a photo of another view of this sword, I would love to see it.



 Attachment: 12.27 KB, Viewed: 14682 times
walloon velddegen.jpg
Velddegen
View user's profile Send private message
Vincent Le Chevalier




Usergroups: None

Location: Paris, France
Reading list: 15 books
Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 790
PostPosted: Thu 31 Jul, 2008 8:51 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Roger Hooper wrote:
These swords showed up in the Netherlands around 1640 - 1650. Most were made in the city of Solingen, Germany, for the Dutch. Many have the city mark of Amsterdam on their blades (see the crown mark in the third picture of the first post of this thread). The name Sahagum is also common on these blades.

Nobody knows for sure why they were called Walloon swords. one idea is that the name was coined by 19th century collectors. Another is that the French captured a pile of these swords during a campaign in the Netherlands in 1672-1673, decided to call it an epee' wallone', and then started supplying them to their own soldiers.


From what I know, the very first French regulation sword was indeed a Walloon sword. A great quantity of these had been ordered by the king in Solingen, following an edict of 1679 imposing a common weapon for all the cavalry. That would be just after the war in Netherlands indeed. From what is said in my book it does not seem that these were simply taken from the ennemy, but really made on purpose.

The depiction of the sword in this same book fits your pictures so closely that I would have thought that this specimen was indeed a French Walloon... The only difference is obviously the Amsterdam town mark, every other aspect down to the shape of the guard and piercing of the plate is identical. Actually, is it possible that this sword had been taken from French troopers and stored in Amsterdam during a later conflict?

Regards,

--
Vincent
Ensis Sub Caelo
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Roger Hooper




Usergroups: 
Donating Members
Premier Members

Location: Northern California
Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 2,054
PostPosted: Thu 31 Jul, 2008 9:02 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

These hilts were first used by the Dutch in the 1640's. I didn't mean to imply that the French only used the Walloon swords that they captured in the Netherlands. They probably thought that they were good swords,and then put in their own orders for them to the swordsmiths of Solingen.

I have come across a number of different pictures of Walloon hilts on the internet, and they are remarkably similar to each other. Their blades were more diverse, but seemed to fall into two main categories:

A cavalry version, with a average 36 inch long blade
A footsoldier version with a 32 inch (or even shorter) blade.
View user's profile Send private message
Thom R.




PostPosted: Thu 31 Jul, 2008 11:23 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

You can see photos of mine in my user album

http://www.myArmoury.com/albums/displayimage....amp;pos=23

My past research indicates that the quatrefoil stamp on the quillon does mark this as a 1679 pattern Mine has it as well. I have heard two different things from two respectable sources on the quatrefoil stamp on the quillon, 1. the quatrefoil stamp was placed on the blade in Amsterdam, and 2. the quatrefoil stamp was placed on the quillon by the French before sending it to their allies. The French supplied these swords to their allies in Ireland (and elsewhere) during the war between James and William. It is my understanding that believe it or not, the 1679s were purchased by France through Amsterdam dealers who ordered the swords from Germany. Eek! Hence, the german, amsterdam and french stamps all on the same sword. It would seem the French could not order the swords directly from the Germans but the ever enterprising Dutch were more than willing to act as intermediaries to turn a buck during one of the lulls in the fighting in that period. The general form of this sword was commonly used by the dutch troops as well during this period.

The sword I have is quite robust, and is a very nice cut and thrust sword, has a very serviceable point for the thrust as well as a substantial oval cross section for cutting. Definitely a sword for mounted cavalry. Mine has a different Amsterdam control mark (XXX) than the one you showed and has a mark with a crown over interlocked letters "BC" which I believe is for the shop in Germany that made the blade. I have seen different inscriptions and shop marks on these, and different pierce patterns on the plates. Probably each shop making these had thier own style. Mine has a running wolf, and SOLINGEN in the fuller. tr
View user's profile Send private message
William Goodwin




PostPosted: Thu 31 Jul, 2008 12:04 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Walloon hilts and mortuary hilts do have similarities in some cases in respect to the guard / bars. I've seen quite a few that share these traits, in my mortuary research over the years

This may be due to time period conflicts (Thirty Years War & British Civil Wars) plus the makers / smiths (Solingen).

One may also see on the first pics posted, a early hint of influence on the small sword design of future decades. IMO


BTW.....nice sword there Roger....


Cheers,


Bill

Roanoke Sword Guilde

roanokeswordguilde@live.com
"I was born for this" - Joan of Arc
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Roger Hooper




Usergroups: 
Donating Members
Premier Members

Location: Northern California
Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 2,054
PostPosted: Fri 01 Aug, 2008 7:16 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here is another Velddegen from Hessink with some odd little scrolled branches.


 Attachment: 10.96 KB, Viewed: 14457 times
walloon4.jpg

View user's profile Send private message
Roger Hooper




Usergroups: 
Donating Members
Premier Members

Location: Northern California
Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 2,054
PostPosted: Fri 01 Aug, 2008 4:21 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm putting up a few more pictures of two more Walloons before this thread goes over the horizon. The first is a cavalry version, the second two are of a French sword.

I wonder why nobody has made a replica of this sword? I'm seriously considering asking someone (maybe Arms and Armor) to make a custom Walloon for me. Maybe the antiques are not prohibitively expensive. I bet there are a lot of them still around since the French had so many made for them.



 Attachment: 27.48 KB, Viewed: 14389 times
WALLY4.jpg
109 cm length overall
View user's profile Send private message
Roger Hooper




Usergroups: 
Donating Members
Premier Members

Location: Northern California
Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 2,054
PostPosted: Fri 01 Aug, 2008 4:24 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here is the French Walloon. Note the concave shape of the pierced plates (counterguards?)


 Attachment: 33.35 KB, Viewed: 14364 times
WALLY6.jpg


 Attachment: 39.47 KB, Viewed: 14358 times
WALLY6A.jpg

View user's profile Send private message
E.B. Erickson




Usergroups: 
Industry Professionals

Location: Thailand
Posts: 342
PostPosted: Sat 02 Aug, 2008 6:08 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I've got one of these Dutch/French Walloons in my collection. It's similar to that shown by Roger, and mine has the stamp on the quillon, and a Sahagum + running wolf + Amsterdam stamps on the blade. Mine is unfortunately missing both pierced inserts (future restoration project). I've always liked the heft and balance of the sword, and also appreciate the aesthetics of this hilt style.

I'd like to suggest that the sword from Hessink's with the little scrolled branches is English. Along with similar swords thathave passed through English auctions over the years, there's one illustrated in the booklet "Arms and Armour in Tudor and Stuart London" that's a virtual twin to the one shown in this thread.

--ElJay
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Mark G.




Usergroups: 
Industry Professionals

Location: WI
Posts: 74
PostPosted: Sat 02 Aug, 2008 9:52 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Roger Hooper wrote:
I'm putting up a few more pictures of two more Walloons before this thread goes over the horizon.


I hope that this thread doesn't go over the horizon. These are really cool swords, and I would love to see more pictures and examples of them.

Here's one that I'm currently making a recreation of. It's missing its guard plates, but the recreation will have them, if I can just get them to shape and fit right.... Big Grin



 Attachment: 20.31 KB, Viewed: 14247 times
1.jpg


www.ollinsworddesign.com
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Marc Pengryffyn




Usergroups: 
Donating Members

Location: Canberra, Australia
Posts: 72
PostPosted: Sat 02 Aug, 2008 6:50 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I have to say, as a bit of a cut-and-thrust enthusiast, I'd be a definite customer for a nice reproduction of one of these. At a reasonable price of course! Just in case any makers are watching this thread...
View user's profile Send private message
Roger Hooper




Usergroups: 
Donating Members
Premier Members

Location: Northern California
Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 2,054
PostPosted: Sat 09 Aug, 2008 10:10 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I was going through the old auctions at Hermann Historica, and found some more interesting swords. (They even sell medieval swords at Hermann Historica!)

First, another Walloon, dating from around 1660, with an overall length of 109m (43 in.). I love the profile on this one. it also has a perfect pear shaped pommel.



 Attachment: 17.31 KB, Viewed: 14127 times
walloon1a 1660.jpg


 Attachment: 5.69 KB, Viewed: 14089 times
walloon1b_109cm.jpg

View user's profile Send private message
Roger Hooper




Usergroups: 
Donating Members
Premier Members

Location: Northern California
Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 2,054
PostPosted: Sat 09 Aug, 2008 10:16 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here is a 17th century German Felddegen or batllefield sword


 Attachment: 25.86 KB, Viewed: 14068 times
felddegen2b 90cm.jpg


 Attachment: 7.16 KB, Viewed: 14059 times
felddegen2a.jpg



Last edited by Roger Hooper on Sat 09 Aug, 2008 10:27 am; edited 1 time in total
View user's profile Send private message
Roger Hooper




Usergroups: 
Donating Members
Premier Members

Location: Northern California
Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 2,054
PostPosted: Sat 09 Aug, 2008 10:21 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Two German Haudegen. I couldn't get a good translation of the word "hau" - the best I could come up with was a "hit the road sword", which doesn't make much sense. German speakers, please help. I don't like the exagerated lobes on the knuckle-guard and branch of the first one, but otherwise, very nice


 Attachment: 32.11 KB, Viewed: 14053 times
Haudegen1c.jpg


 Attachment: 6.65 KB, Viewed: 14035 times
Haudegen1a.jpg


 Attachment: 22.09 KB, Viewed: 14057 times
Haudegen2b.jpg


 Attachment: 42.25 KB, Viewed: 14050 times
haudegen2c 90cm.jpg


 Attachment: 7.23 KB, Viewed: 14022 times
haudegen2a.jpg
90 cm overall length
View user's profile Send private message
Lafayette C Curtis




PostPosted: Fri 22 Aug, 2008 1:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Couldn't "Haudegen" mean something like "cutting sword" or "shearing-sword?"
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Roger Hooper




Usergroups: 
Donating Members
Premier Members

Location: Northern California
Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 2,054
PostPosted: Fri 22 Aug, 2008 1:03 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Lafayette C Curtis wrote:
Couldn't "Haudegen" mean something like "cutting sword" or "shearing-sword?"


I’ve been looking around for a definition of this word. There just isn’t an exact translation. For the sword itself, I’ve come across “Slash and Shock”, which is sort of like Cut-and-Thrust.

Most of the time Haudegen (or Houwdegen for the Dutch) refers to a type of person. There are a number of translations –

Swashbuckler
Daredevil
Old Warhorse
Old Campaigner
etc.

Old seems to be part of most of the translations. I say a Haudegen is a cagy, hardbitten, old veteran, like one of the Three Musketeers in their twilight years.

Since I’m bringing up definitions, what really is the definition of a Walloon hilt? Is it just the early version, illustrated by the first photo in this thread? There are a lot of swords around that look almost exactly like it. Or, as some believe, should it also include other 17th and 18th century swords with more complex hilts – lobed side and diagonal branches, round pommels, and different sized and shaped counterguards?

The name itself is suspect, since Wallonia, the southern part of Belgium, seems to have nothing to do with the sword, which was made in Solingen for the Dutch, particularly for Amsterdam, and later ordered by the French as a stock sword for their own army (and for their allies).

For a good discussion of the “classic” Walloon sword, see this article from the Leger Museum - http://www.collectie.legermuseum.nl/strategio...07268.html -

So what do you think? Should all these swords be called Walloons, or should the other 17th century military swords – Haudegen and Felddegen - with more complex hilts be called something else?



 Attachment: 7.21 KB, Viewed: 13853 times
GER BROAD4-1640-98.5CM.jpg
German - 1640 - 98.5cm overall length
View user's profile Send private message
Eric Bergman




Usergroups: None

Location: Illinois
Posts: 11
PostPosted: Fri 22 Aug, 2008 3:59 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

And who could not forget this excellent link:

http://www.sfhm.se/templates/pages/ArmeObjectListPage____306.aspx
View user's profile Send private message


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Walloon Swords
Page 1 of 3 Reply to topic
Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum



All contents © Copyright 2003-2013 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum