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Kai Lawson




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PostPosted: Wed 23 Apr, 2014 7:09 pm    Post subject: Interesting sword type in manuscript         Reply with quote

http://manuscriptminiatures.com/5018/15647/

Listed as a German manuscript from 1230-1250, These three (relatively well equipped) guards in this resurrection scene have interestingly matched weapons, though as far as I can tell, only the central figure has decoration on his pommel. They look like potentially type XIII or possibly type XII (thought they look a bit wide for XIIs to me). However, I wanted to get some input on the hilts: specifically, does it look like they might be two/one-and-a-half length grips to anyone else, despite the interesting pommel, or do they appear to be simply overly large single handed affairs?

Thoughts?



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"And they crossed swords."
--William Goldman, alias S. Morgenstern
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Phil D.




PostPosted: Wed 23 Apr, 2014 7:50 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Great find !!!

Of course it is just my interpretation but I think that it is just a poor artist's rendition of a single handed sword. ..if you will notice the heads on the two on the left seem rather large for the bodies...and the helmet that the figure on the right is leaning on...it's huuuge.

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Tim Lison




PostPosted: Wed 23 Apr, 2014 9:18 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nice manuscript art! I would think these are probably type XII swords, although type XIII wouldn't be outlandish. The pommel does seem to be decorated in the central sword which is a bit unusual for the type. Thanks for posting it!
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Luka Borscak




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PostPosted: Thu 24 Apr, 2014 3:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It might be just a singlehander drawn too big, but this is the period when swords with brazil nut-ish pommels were made with grips longer than usual for single handed swords...
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Mart Shearer




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PostPosted: Thu 24 Apr, 2014 7:36 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The guard to the left with the Phrygian helmet has one hand on the grip, but a considerable amount of grip is still shown. The "Fullscreen" zoom feature on the linked page from the Met makes the two white lines on the center pommel clearly visible.
http://www.metmuseum.org/Collections/search-t...ons/466624

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Kai Lawson




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PostPosted: Thu 24 Apr, 2014 8:29 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I confess to have been enamored enough by the art style and the scabbards to be using it for my laptop background, which is how I noticed the lines. I'd like to think that the swords are single handed, but something about them (the grip length is consistently too long for only one hand) makes me think they're slightly larger than normal…
I dunno. I just thought they looked cool

"And they crossed swords."
--William Goldman, alias S. Morgenstern
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Mart Shearer




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PostPosted: Thu 24 Apr, 2014 9:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It's simply impossible to make definitive judgments based on a miniature. Here's another mid-13 c. German miniature with plenty of two-handed use.
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4830/10233/

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Harry Marinakis




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PostPosted: Thu 24 Apr, 2014 4:44 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Really can't tell XII from XIII from these images. Now if you can find an image with the sword out of the scabbard... then if the fuller is depicted, you might be able to discern one type from the other.

What I find most interesting are the wide thong belts. In Germany, the wide thong belt was used almost exclusively until the beginning of the 14th Century (compared to narrower buckle belts that were becoming common elsewhere).
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J.D. Crawford




PostPosted: Thu 24 Apr, 2014 7:28 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That's a great piece of art. I really like those swords.

The swords depicted are very typical mid 13th century central European types, with wide blades, wide type 1a cross, and late variety Brazil not pommels varying between type E and N (Oakeshott conventions). Although the blades are not visible they appear to maintain their width toward the tip - also typical of surviving examples which tend to have narrow fullers that may be longer (Xa), shorter, (XIII) or something in between. Could also be XII but Germans and Eastern Europeans of that period tended to like the heavy choppers. These blades are a bit on the short side, but not outside historic variations.

I would not worry so much about the handle length. Also looks dead on for the period. Swordsmiths were experimenting with handles length in that period -handles were often longer than the previous typical 3.5-3.75" one hander while not long enough to be called 1.5 hand by later standards. For example 4.5-5"

The problems of interpretation only occur when one expects swords to fall dead within modern categories. Often they did not.
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Kai Lawson




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Location: Madison, WI
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PostPosted: Thu 24 Apr, 2014 8:34 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Glad to have everyone's input. I plan on constructing a 'sister sword' to those in this group. I have some higher purity casting silver to decorate the pommel with, and I have some plans for a gold inlay, of sorts for the blade. I just need a blade first!
"And they crossed swords."
--William Goldman, alias S. Morgenstern
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