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Gary Teuscher
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 Posted: Thu 20 Nov, 2008 11:15 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | One reason I believe that it is likely maille could be penetrated is the power of the warbow as used by the Welsh and the English. A 1000 grain bodkin on a 1/2" diameter bobtailed shaft shot from a 125-lb draw weight warbow drawn to full length against a stationary target wearing riveted maille over period padding at shorter ranges will penetrate the maille and likely the padding beneath. |
At what range generally do you see the mail being penetrated?
A seperate but perhaps related question - I've heard of doubled mail, and it may have even been mentioned in comtemporary sources.
Now all mail that has been found is 4-1 construction, the only 6-1 or 8-1 you find is from reproduction shops. Even Japanese mail, though a bit different, was still 4 in 1 construction.
So if doubled maill existed, what was it? Larger/thicker links? I wonder if doubled mail might me literally just that - maybe a mail vest over a habergeon?
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Robin Palmer
Location: herne bay Kent UK Joined: 21 Dec 2007
Posts: 138
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| Posted: Thu 20 Nov, 2008 11:28 am Post subject: |
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Hi jonathan
During the Indian mutiny in the 1850s british troops at the siege of Delhi came under fire from musket rifle and arrow fire all agreed that arrows were the worst. Slow enough to be seen coming to fast to avoid plus a man falls over hit by a bullet he has a neat hole and some blood troops found the sight of bodies with arrows sticking out of them disturbing. Having been on the receiving end of arrows in re-inactments I can testify to their effect against that I have to say that a good shield and training reduces effect mental and physical add armour and it's effect is massively reduced.
Hi Michael
Off the top of my head I can not give you the name I have it some place in my libary I am trying to find it one was in France it was famous for the production of shields and pavises. I am pretty sure that there were a couple of Italian towns as well they operated in the same way as towns which produced arms and armour placed to make the best use of raw materials.
A small point on shields and two handed weapons it was not unknown for Saxon huscarls to have a small buckler strapped to their left arms / elbow in battle I have tried the same while using a long sword. The buckler did not get in the way and offered an interesting bonus allowing the option of using buckler to block leaving sword free to cut. The macedonian pike men also used a small buckler in conjunctions with a 16ft pike.
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Randall Moffett
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| Posted: Thu 20 Nov, 2008 12:20 pm Post subject: |
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Gary,
There is a mail standard at the BM with a 6-in-1 top and 4- in-1 lower half. The lower half is also flat rings and the top is round. There are others but Eric would have to chime in or Russ as I cannot think of any others off the top of my mind.
There are plenty of historic accounts that show mail penetrated and the wearer killed. There are also others that tell the opposite. In the end this is generally true for many types of armour. Most tests done have been pretty poor. Even Williams as Dan stated used a bow that was far to weak to give really meaningful results.
As Dan said some mail was 'proofed' against arrows. There is no question in my mind one can make mail to various uses and strengths. The above mentioned mail standard is one of these. The weakest place is 6 in 1, round and thick linked. This was clearly done intentionally for added strength and rigidity over the throat. In many inventories there are interesting types of mail listed but in the end we likely will never know exactly what they were unless we find some very detailed accounts which seem unlikely but not impossible.
RPM
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Gary Teuscher
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| Posted: Thu 20 Nov, 2008 12:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | There is a mail standard at the BM with a 6-in-1 top and 4- in-1 lower half. |
Interesting. Most what I have read lists 4-1 as the only construction type. Looked up a few other sources and some say it existed but was rare, others say some of this finds of 6-1 are debateable.
Of course a piece of period mail in a museum would be some pretty strong evidence!
I agree wholeheartedly piercing mail was not easy. But there are certainly references as you mention of men being killed by arrows through their mail.
I think the big question is not whether it could be penetrated, but by what types of bows/arrows/range.
I knoe there is the account of a Welsh (before the classical longbow of the later middle ages) arrow piercing through a mailed man's leg and into his horse, sticking him to the horse. How much of this is ture I do not know.
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Dan Howard
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| Posted: Thu 20 Nov, 2008 12:57 pm Post subject: |
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I have written an essay that surveys many of the commonly used eyewitness accounts. It is scrupulously referenced and will make a decent starting point to any further discussion when myArmoury publishes it. To summarise there are many many different types of mail. Some are more resistant to arrows than others. For those who wanted mail that was proofed against a heavy longbow, they could get it. The only real questions relate to its prevalence and the various pros and cons of such a construction.
And I wish the people would stop cited backyard experiments with Indian riveted mail as some sort of evidence relating to the effectiveness of historical armour. There is virtually nothing in common with the stuff coming out of India and any surviving pieces of mail. RIVETED does not EQUAL HISTORICAL.
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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| Posted: Thu 20 Nov, 2008 2:54 pm Post subject: |
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To emphasize what Dan has said, he has submitted an article which does address many things that often go round and round on forums like this. Having an online reference to quickly point people to each time will, in itself, be of great value. This goes beyond the value of the content itself. It will be a nice addition to this site and the 'net community as a whole.
This part is off-topic but I feel the need to express it so that others will know why such materials are not yet available to the public: Dan has really stepped up to the plate to write such an article and the fact that it's already not online is entirely on my own shoulders and no others. My work schedule and attempts to rebuild my career in today's economy have taken a toll on me and left me with very little extracurricular time on my hands. I can only offer my word that I'm doing my best to get everything done each day that I can.
.:. Visit my Collection Gallery :: View my Reading List :: View my Wish List :: See Pages I Like :: Find me on Facebook .:.
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Gary Teuscher
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| Posted: Thu 20 Nov, 2008 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I have written an essay that surveys many of the commonly used eyewitness accounts. It is scrupulously referenced and will make a decent starting point to any further discussion when myArmoury publishes it |
Would be very interested in the results!
So I guess what is being said is arrows can penetrate mail, and they cannot. Depends on a ton a variables, type of arrow, strength of bow, range, type of mail construcion, thickness, etc. etc.
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This is a standard topic