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Peter Johnsson
Industry Professional
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 Posted: Mon 23 Mar, 2009 1:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Sean Flynt wrote: | | I'm not sure the messer grip construction is simpler than the traditional sword grip. In my very limited experience, a riveted scale grip of the period is harder to do, with more steps and materials and requiring more skills and tools. |
I agree with you Sean.
to put this into perspective, we need to consider the sensibilities of customers today and in historic times.
Many high quality weapons, both swords and messers, that have survived in a good state of preseravtion to our times, show glaring misalignment and gaps. I could not deliver such work to a customer today. Or rather, very very few of my customers would appreciate that particular detail of authenticity. A small minority actually do, however!
With less demand on fit and finish, labor intensity changes.
The distinction between messer and falchion depends on grip/hilt construction. There are some blade types that are more commonly found on one or the other type, abd some blade types that are exclusive for one or the other type. There is still a great overlap.
Seen as groups, types or families, they do have some distinctly different characteristics. All individual examples are on a sliding scale however. It is impossible to make general assumptions that hold true always. We can only observe some trends.
The reason for the distinction between the two types can well be legal: medieval guilds had exclusive rights to produce certain products. There was a difference sometimes, in some places between who was allowed to make knives and who was allowed to make swords. The design of the messer grip, makes this weapon a product of the knife cutler, while the hilt of the falchion puts it in the realm of the sword cutler.
It would not have been like this always and everywhere, but often enough to generate the distinction to begin with. When the two weapons had reached their maturity and acceptance among users they lived on in many permutations over the centuries.
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Bill Grandy
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Mon 23 Mar, 2009 1:16 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you for that post, Peter!
HistoricalHandcrafts.com
-Inspired by History, Crafted by Hand
"For practice is better than artfulness. Your exercise can do well without artfulness, but artfulness is not much good without the exercise.” -anonymous 15th century fencing master, MS 3227a
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Sam M.
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| Posted: Mon 23 Mar, 2009 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Peter Johnsson wrote: | The distinction between messer and falchion depends on grip/hilt construction. There are some blade types that are more commonly found on one or the other type, abd some blade types that are exclusive for one or the other type. There is still a great overlap.
Seen as groups, types or families, they do have some distinctly different characteristics. All individual examples are on a sliding scale however. It is impossible to make general assumptions that hold true always. We can only observe some trends.
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Peter, this is exactly the information I am looking for! While recognizing that individual examples might exhibit wide variation and that the two styles greatly overlap, I am curious about trends (which again do not always hold true).
What can you (or anyone) tell me about the "distinctly different characteristics" between these two families (particularly in the late Medieval period), in terms of trends, besides the obvious difference in hilt construction?
For example, is it accurate to say that falchion blades are frequently (not always) wider in profile at their widest point (relative to the width at the guard) than messers (i.e. that the falchion profile frequently swells more dramatically than the messer profile)? Is it accurate to say that messers usually have an acute tip while falchions tend to exhibit greater variation in their tips, sometimes acute and sometimes almost flat? Or are even these general trend statements not justified?
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Peter Johnsson
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Mon 23 Mar, 2009 2:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Sam M. wrote: |
...For example, is it accurate to say that falchion blades are frequently (not always) wider in profile at their widest point (relative to the width at the guard) than messers (i.e. that the falchion profile frequently swells more dramatically than the messer profile)? Is it accurate to say that messers usually have an acute tip while falchions tend to exhibit greater variation in their tips, sometimes acute and sometimes almost flat? Or are even these general trend statements not justified? |
In general, yes.
The widening of the blade in that Flachion-ish way is rather typical for falchions. Falchions can have sharp clip points of more blunt-ish butcher knife points.
...But you also see all sort of variation in blade width, curvature, cross section, point type, size, weight and heft.
Mostly both messers and falchions are much lighter and handier than is popularly the idea.
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Sam M.
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| Posted: Mon 23 Mar, 2009 3:56 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for your succinct but informative reply.
I have also just discovered this (spotlighted) thread
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=8806
ostensibly about this exact question, though ironically it contains less information about the distinctions between messers and falchions than the recent discussion here, as that thread ultimately strayed far from the original question. It's quite a resource for period images of various chopper-type swords, though.
That thread also links to interesting discussions of the bizarre-looking choppers I posted images of earlier in this thread (short, broadly-flaring, squared-off swords which seem like fantasy weapons but obviously are not).
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David Teague
Location: Anchorage, Alaska Joined: 25 Jan 2004
Posts: 409
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| Posted: Mon 23 Mar, 2009 8:04 pm Post subject: |
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Hello H. Mann,
I like the messer & falchion as weapons.
Like Bill Grandy, I too study the German schools of medieval combat and started training with the messer last Sept. after working with the long sword for the last 7 years.
It's a gas.  I'm lucky enough to have 5 fellow students who wanted to learn the messer, so we've been hitting it hard the last 7 months. We like it so much we are upgrading from wooden wasters to custom Aluminum messer blunts from Germany.
The best style of messer to be used with the fighting style of Lecküchner, Kal, Talhoffer et al IMO is one with a grip that would be considered a hand & a half in length. This extra length isn't used for a 2 handed hold, but to hook your opponent in many of the attacks & counters in the system. This is where the standard one handed grip of the arming sword, falchion, and even the smaller messers don't work well... or at all.
I find having the longer grip of my messer allows the thumb grip to flow much easier than the short grip of my falchion. But that just might me me & my frankfurter fingers. You'll want to be able to shift effortlessly from the standard grip to the thumb and back in messer. This is where the Zornhau, Wecker., Entrüßthau, Wincker, etc will flow from.
Cheers,
DT
This you shall know, that all things have length and measure.
Free Scholar/ Instructor Selohaar Fechtschule
The Historic Recrudescence Guild
"Yea though I walk through the valley of death, I will fear no evil: for Thou's sword art is with me; Thy poleaxe and Thy quarterstaff they comfort me."
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Bill Grandy
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Mon 23 Mar, 2009 8:29 pm Post subject: |
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| David Teague wrote: | | The best style of messer to be used with the fighting style of Lecküchner, Kal, Talhoffer et al IMO is one with a grip that would be considered a hand & a half in length. |
Well, *technically* the ones in Talhoffer are not of the "hand and a half" length. And technically you can still do a lot of those hooks with many arming swords or falchions since the pommel adds length in a way that many messers don't. But yeah, I like the longer grip for messerfechten myself. 
HistoricalHandcrafts.com
-Inspired by History, Crafted by Hand
"For practice is better than artfulness. Your exercise can do well without artfulness, but artfulness is not much good without the exercise.” -anonymous 15th century fencing master, MS 3227a
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David Teague
Location: Anchorage, Alaska Joined: 25 Jan 2004
Posts: 409
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| Posted: Mon 23 Mar, 2009 10:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Bill Grandy wrote: | | David Teague wrote: | | The best style of messer to be used with the fighting style of Lecküchner, Kal, Talhoffer et al IMO is one with a grip that would be considered a hand & a half in length. |
Well, *technically* the ones in Talhoffer are not of the "hand and a half" length. And technically you can still do a lot of those hooks with many arming swords or falchions since the pommel adds length in a way that many messers don't. But yeah, I like the longer grip for messerfechten myself. |
Hmmm that look like arming sword in my hand...
and I'll take my hand & a half grip on my messer any day over the arming sword. 
You've hidden somewhere in those photos. ( It just like a WMA find Waldo! )
Cheers,
DT
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This you shall know, that all things have length and measure.
Free Scholar/ Instructor Selohaar Fechtschule
The Historic Recrudescence Guild
"Yea though I walk through the valley of death, I will fear no evil: for Thou's sword art is with me; Thy poleaxe and Thy quarterstaff they comfort me."
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M. Eversberg II
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| Posted: Tue 21 Apr, 2009 11:28 pm Post subject: |
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This may be a bump, but I figured this was the best place to ask.
Has anyone experience with the larger, two handed messers? When did they come about, and what master (if any) discusses them?
M.
This space for rent or lease.
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M. Eversberg II
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| Posted: Fri 24 Apr, 2009 1:49 am Post subject: |
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| Sean Flynt wrote: | | I'm not sure the messer grip construction is simpler than the traditional sword grip. In my very limited experience, a riveted scale grip of the period is harder to do, with more steps and materials and requiring more skills and tools. |
Been thinking about this myself. I *think* the biggest simplification in the hilt process is that, once you've got the guard and blade done, you don't need any more forge work. Riveting the slabs to the tang is done in the cold (otherwise you wouldn't have much left to call a grip ), and a pommel must take some time to make in and of itself (Wouldn't know, don't know how they're made in period).
Combining the thinner, shorter blade and lack of knobby pommel, you use a lot less iron. Because you skip an entire hot work step, the process frees up your forge during that period of time, and you use less fuel per unit. Cold riveting can also use bits and bobs of scrap iron and wood otherwise wasted. You don't need glue or leather (which you have to go and PAY for, or have someone else do), either. You also get to skip the step where you play the guessing game with balance -- there's no pommel to adjust, anyways. There's more time you can spend making another messer.
Additionally, from what I've gathered the target market is different. Individuals probably don't come asking for a personal messer so much as someone in charge of an arsenal puts out requests for them. As such, they probably see the dollars and cents part more than the craftmanship part, allowing you to "get away" with these changes. A man issued one is probably happy to receive the weapon at all.
Now, this is speculation (Yay for archaeology), which was inspired from innumerable instances of history where corners have been cut.
M.
This space for rent or lease.
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