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Hector A.




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PostPosted: Mon 10 Nov, 2014 7:19 pm    Post subject: New Cluny Review.         Reply with quote

Hello Forum,

I am reviewing the replacement Cluny Albion made for me after the disaster that was the last one. If you want to read about that, link is here: http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=30540.

I will review this one in the same manner as the last one.

Stats for my Cluny:

Left side my Cluny------------------Right side website advertised

Total length: 123,4 cm's // 123,8 cm's
Blade length: 98 cm's // 98 cm's
COG: 9 cm's // 9 cm's
COP: 56 cm's // 56 cm's
Grip Length: 17, 8 cm's // Not Given
Pommel Length: 5,5 cm's // Not Given
Weight: 1138g // 1140g

I checked and double checked carefully the measurements, to within a 0,5 cm tolerance.
Blade length was measured from start of guard to tip.
The COG in the same way as above.
Grip Length does not include pommel or guard.

Remarks on measurements: Pretty spot on, this time 2cm's are not missing from blade length and i expect the minor differences in total length to come from people measuring in slightly different ways, this Cluny's stats are extremely similar to advertised!

Leather Work: The grip has 3 risers and is ribbed giving it good traction. The grip has a continuation of leather that extends past and covers the guard, into a circular chap.
The color is a dark chocolate, with ORANGE stripes.
The size of the grip itself is just enough to squeeze in two hands, if you "thumb" the chap, the grip then gains space and becomes more comfortable. The wasted part of the grip might be 2 small to grip for most, i personally have no problems and have big hands. ( My palm's span is 10 cm's ).

The Positives(in comparison to last time): Seam is invisible, no dye transfer to hands, no oozing varnish/glue type substances, risers are horizontal, no rotting in the chaps back straps.

The Negatives: The leather cut is still un-even on one side but its not to bad, and the old oxblood reflections have been replaced by orange stripes.

Overall 5/5: In my opinion the orange stripes add a lot of character to the sword, if you don't like orange you probably wont like them however, the un-even leather cut is far from anything major. This leather work is miles ahead in quality in comparison to the old one.

Pictures:

Invisible leather seam, overall well cut leather, oranges stripes, no oozing etc...












Fittings: Both pommel and guard are well executed in terms of shape and detail, just like last time. The pommel seems hollow to a certain degree, the peen is EXTREMELY well hidden into the detail of the outer ring. I personally can't grip the pommel bare hands and neither can my wife, you can however grip it comfortably with leather gloves.

Positives: Fantastic Bluing job, no scratches, pitting, stains or rust!

(Special Attention to Cluny owners: DO NOT USE ANYTHING BUT LANOLIN BASED OILS, otherwise the bluing will fade and become grayish in color, i was warned by a fellow forum member that noticed other Cluny owners complaining the bluing was going grey or fading. If you do not have lanolin based oil then just wipe the fittings with a dry cloth vigorously every now and again or after use. My personal choice: Fluid Film examples of oils not to use: Ballistol, wd-40, break free CLP, mineral oil etc...)

5/5 Fittings and bluing

Some of the bluing can already be seen in previous pictures, here are more + fittings:







Almost totally invisible Peen :O:



Blade Geometry:

The Cluny has a extremely simple diamond geometry. Not flat or thick. it tapers aggressively to a point. This one does not have as previously mentioned a 10 cm needle point, its just a very graceful and thin diamond geometry, this will help the tip to cut to some degree, as the last one had no edges in the last 10 cm's.

The Positives: The center ridge line is no longer off center like the old one, making for a balanced geometry. The point is pointy, everything is well done.

5/5 Blade Geometry

Pictures: Base, point and transition from flat cutting surface to thicker point section.

disclaimer: the point looks scratchy in the picture below, its not, its a crap photo sorry.







Sword Sharpeness:

Oh boy here we go again ^^.
Monkey has been promoted to dexterous orangutan!

Positives: All 4 bevels are "sharpened" ("formed" would be a better word), all 4 have the same angle.

Negatives: sword wont even cut paper let alone anything else, on closer inspection of the edge i noticed the 2 bevels don't meet, a distinct flat white line shines back at me...

I give it a 2/5, we almost made it boys, you got the angle down, you did work on all 4 bevels, you just didn't do enough, that or, and i repeat, if your not using a sanding block to scotbrite the swords after sharpening then you should, by hand it will blunt the edge.
Other possibility: customs somewhere along the way blunting the swords with a sharpening rode for safety. Either way the euro market is getting distinctly blunt Albion blades, in many cases simply re-aligning the edge and/or stropping does the trick to bring it back to some degree.

Sword Handling:

WHAT A JOY this sword is nothing like the old one, its fast, effortless and fun, the point tracks well from guard to guard, a distinct "wish" sound is made with each and every cut, any serious longsword practitioner should try the Cluny at least once in his life, many are familiar with the Brescia Spadona's handling,i will just say that once you have used a Cluny the BS feels like an ox in comparison, have both so believe me when i say i'm not even exaggerating, whenever i want to train i no longer pick up any of my other swords, i go straight to the Cluny every time!
Enough said.

5/5: BEST HANDLING EURO SWORD ON THE MARKET HANDS DOWN.

Extra on handling: i tested the pivot points and vibration nodes on my old one and this one, i won't go into detail about the old one but this new one has them placed exactly like on this picture of Peter J. :



Extra's(Things i did not mention before or that i did not talk about in the old review):

The finish is the standard scotbrite satin, no scratches are present on the finish what so ever, everything is uniformly done. The assembly is very tight, i don't think the construction will become lose any time soon with reasonable use.
The wooden box in which the Cluny came in was broken and seems weakly assembled, little nails and super glue... lol, yet i cannot fault it, it did its job in bringing this baby safely to its ever lasting home. ( not selling this guys! )
Something very strange about this Cluny is the makers mark is 3 times bigger than on the other Cluny, or any other of my Albion's for that matter.

Picture:



Maybe they just made it that way because this one is 3x better than the last.

Bottom Line: This Cluny gets a 5/5 despite the sharpening that could be a problem for somebody without power tools or experience in the matter.
Everything i had to say has been said above, but to repeat myself on key points: its well made, beautiful and functional.
I would like to thank Albion for the special care they put into manufacturing me this example of a historical piece of art.
And above all i hope you will maintain this standard of quality for years to come.
I also want to thank Peter and Howard for providing a quick response last time to my thread, and Søren for taking care of the problem with Albion US.

I hope you enjoy reading this review, and that it will provide an insight into what the Cluny is about and what to expect from Albion in terms of quality.

Happy reading


Last edited by Hector A. on Sat 15 Nov, 2014 11:19 am; edited 1 time in total
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Jeremy V. Krause




PostPosted: Tue 11 Nov, 2014 5:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That's excellent,

I'm glad they addressed the valid concerns you had with your first Cluny. Enjoy your new sword- it's a beauty!
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Luka Borscak




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PostPosted: Tue 11 Nov, 2014 6:52 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Shame about the sharpening, though. This sword is not an armour basher and it should have a proper, sharp edge...
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Gordon Alexander




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PostPosted: Tue 11 Nov, 2014 8:54 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thank you very much Hector. I really appreciate the dynamic balance information. I suppose that I have a question for Vincent or others who understand Vincent's mass distribution posits. The distance between the cross pivot point and the related forward pivot point is Vincent's 'dynamic length'? Both of these longswords have forward pivot points closer to the tips than Vincent's example swords with the exception of the Montante and to a lesser extent the Cavalier. Vincent's Brescia Spedona indicates a forward pivot point 9" from the tip. Am I confused or does Vincent have a different Brescia Spedona and or do Hector's sword have exceptionally tip close forward pivot points? Also Vincent, is this info from Hector enough for you to make you "Stick and point mass" determinations for them?
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Hector A.




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PostPosted: Tue 11 Nov, 2014 11:16 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Gordon Alexander wrote:
Thank you very much Hector. I really appreciate the dynamic balance information. I suppose that I have a question for Vincent or others who understand Vincent's mass distribution posits. The distance between the cross pivot point and the related forward pivot point is Vincent's 'dynamic length'? Both of these longswords have forward pivot points closer to the tips than Vincent's example swords with the exception of the Montante and to a lesser extent the Cavalier. Vincent's Brescia Spedona indicates a forward pivot point 9" from the tip. Am I confused or does Vincent have a different Brescia Spedona and or do Hector's sword have exceptionally tip close forward pivot points? Also Vincent, is this info from Hector enough for you to make you "Stick and point mass" determinations for them?


My Brescia Spadona has the forward pivot point at 15 cm's, if that helps, and its COP is at 52 cm's.
Concerning the Cluny, the old one had its pivot point double the distance back from this one, which has it at the same place as the picture from Peter J.
I'm guessing that's why it felt terrible in handling...

If it interests anyone i sharpened the Cluny, i decided to sharpen it as it seems the original was sharpened, forming the edge from the primary bevel, using sandpaper on a sanding block, grits from 400 to 2000 followed by green, red and blue compound stropping.

The reason i say the original seems to be sharpened that way is part intuition part observation, the original Cluny displays slightly hollow ground primary bevels and cross scratch patterns, that indicates it would be sharpened/polished from the primary bevel rather than at an angle ( of course i might be wrong so if you have observed differently or know different please correct me ), the mid ridge is also slightly flat at the base of the sword. The Cluny Peter decided to reproduce indicates none of these traits, it is in an " as in new " condition, so the hollow ground bevels he decided to omit must have been from his observations a result of the type of sharpening it received during its working life.

So this and also the fact i am pretty sure a 30-40 degree micro bevel will not produce good results on such a fair sword led me to sharpen it as i did.

Result: We are left with a sword and edges that are mirror polished, razor sharp ( as in can shave hair ). The edge formed from the primary bevel is not as delicate as one might think, its definitely inferior to 30 degree's, but i would not call it fragile, the Cluny is pretty thick in many places only the COP is much thinner which goes to reason as its the place where cuts are made.

Testing: So far i tested it on milk jugs, small to big water bottles, detergent bottles and newspaper rolls. I intend on testing it also on my abomination known as fresh goats bones covered with pig flesh medium ( closest thing to humans, you have my guaranty! ), to pierce and cut various modern clothing items on a strung up yoga mat and test how many centimeters can go threw mail armor. I wont test it further than that because i believe it will damage the blade and it will not perform its duty correctly, like say on plate armor, i've tested all my blades at the beginning on all medium i could think of and i learned a thing or 2 on what doesn't work!

The Cluny performed excellent on the milk jugs, big water bottles and detergent bottles, the small water bottles it could only cut with the COP, cutting with the point would bat them away no matter what cut i tried and what speed i put into them.

The newspaper rolls averaged on size from 7 cm's to 11 cm's. No tip cut was effective at all on any of them, COP cuts however where surprising in result.

7 cm's to 9 cm's rolls where cut cleanly with COP cuts!!!, anything above this size and it would fall short of a clean cut.
I don't know about you but this comes in as a surprise to me, the Cluny's COP is in no way wide at all, the entire sword looks a lot like a rapier, and probably has the thickness and width of many of them.
I have completely changed my view on what a rapier can and cannot cut, clearly they have bigger cutting power than most seem to think! 9 cm's is not particularly big, but its not easy either, depends a lot on the sword your using, if i was asked prior i would have bet the Cluny would probably fail.
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Gordon Alexander




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PostPosted: Tue 11 Nov, 2014 12:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Your Brescia Spadona seems to have a forward pivot point 9.8 centimeters further out than Vincent's. That is a very significant difference, no? They would not feel like the same sword. I am very interested in playing with the numbers for swords with such far out pivot points. How far from the tip is the Cluny forward pivot point? How far from the end of pommel or the tip is the cross pivot point?
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Hector A.




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PostPosted: Tue 11 Nov, 2014 12:28 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Gordon Alexander wrote:
Your Brescia Spadona seems to have a forward pivot point 9.8 centimeters further out than Vincent's. That is a very significant difference, no? They would not feel like the same sword. I am very interested in playing with the numbers for swords with such far out pivot points. How far from the tip is the Cluny forward pivot point? How far from the end of pommel or the tip is the cross pivot point?


I noticed my Brescia has a much thinner point than most i see in pictures, many have a slight bulge just before the very point till the point, mine doesn't, maybe that explains why the pivot point is closer? Maybe a better word is mine hasn't got a re-enforced point.

My Cluny's forward pivot point is at 14,5 cm's from the tip. I don't understand what you mean by "cross pivot point" ?
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Vincent Le Chevalier




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PostPosted: Tue 11 Nov, 2014 12:42 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Gordon Alexander wrote:
Thank you very much Hector. I really appreciate the dynamic balance information. I suppose that I have a question for Vincent or others who understand Vincent's mass distribution posits. The distance between the cross pivot point and the related forward pivot point is Vincent's 'dynamic length'? Both of these longswords have forward pivot points closer to the tips than Vincent's example swords with the exception of the Montante and to a lesser extent the Cavalier. Vincent's Brescia Spedona indicates a forward pivot point 9" from the tip. Am I confused or does Vincent have a different Brescia Spedona and or do Hector's sword have exceptionally tip close forward pivot points?


First off, the sword pictured here together with the Cluny is the Ljubljana, not the Brescia.
In the data that I have published so far there are no swords that are of the same type as the Cluny and Ljubljana. This is why the placement of pivot points is somewhat different.

Quote:
Also Vincent, is this info from Hector enough for you to make you "Stick and point mass" determinations for them?


It is, indeed I had them already computed from Peter's image that Hector reposted but never wrote the number anywhere. Following the format of my article:
Cluny: stick density of ~300g/m, point mass 40mm from the cross
Ljubljana: stick density of ~500g/m, point mass 50mm from the cross
Both have a mass concentration of 65%.

They are similar in some ways, but the Ljubljana is a lot more massive.

Regards,

--
Vincent
Ensis Sub Caelo
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Hector A.




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PostPosted: Tue 11 Nov, 2014 12:48 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Vincent Le Chevalier wrote:
Gordon Alexander wrote:
Thank you very much Hector. I really appreciate the dynamic balance information. I suppose that I have a question for Vincent or others who understand Vincent's mass distribution posits. The distance between the cross pivot point and the related forward pivot point is Vincent's 'dynamic length'? Both of these longswords have forward pivot points closer to the tips than Vincent's example swords with the exception of the Montante and to a lesser extent the Cavalier. Vincent's Brescia Spedona indicates a forward pivot point 9" from the tip. Am I confused or does Vincent have a different Brescia Spedona and or do Hector's sword have exceptionally tip close forward pivot points?


First off, the sword pictured here together with the Cluny is the Ljubljana, not the Brescia.
In the data that I have published so far there are no swords that are of the same type as the Cluny and Ljubljana. This is why the placement of pivot points is somewhat different.

Quote:
Also Vincent, is this info from Hector enough for you to make you "Stick and point mass" determinations for them?


It is, indeed I had them already computed from Peter's image that Hector reposted but never wrote the number anywhere. Following the format of my article:
Cluny: stick density of ~300g/m, point mass 40mm from the cross
Ljubljana: stick density of ~500g/m, point mass 50mm from the cross
Both have a mass concentration of 65%.

They are similar in some ways, but the Ljubljana is a lot more massive.

Regards,


Interesting, have you got a list i could read of other swords stick density? What would the stick density of a sword such as the brescia, alexandria, svante be?

If i'm understanding this correctly from least dense to most it would be : Cluny, Brescia, Ljubljana, Alexandria and Svante correct?

What practical use do you attach to stick density? How blade heavy the sword is?
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Vincent Le Chevalier




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PostPosted: Wed 12 Nov, 2014 11:55 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hector A. wrote:
Interesting, have you got a list i could read of other swords stick density? What would the stick density of a sword such as the brescia, alexandria, svante be?

If i'm understanding this correctly from least dense to most it would be : Cluny, Brescia, Ljubljana, Alexandria and Svante correct?

What practical use do you attach to stick density? How blade heavy the sword is?

Hi Hector,

Basically everything I can say about that computation can be read in my post here (the last part). As I say stick density is how stout the sword feels (how hard it hits but also how hard it is to rotate around the hilt), not necessarily how blade heavy it feels (this is rather related to mass concentration I'd say).

The numbers on these other swords are not public, so unless you measure them yourself and use the formula I give I'm afraid there is not a lot to discuss.

The interpretation and comparison of these measurements is still a work in progress anyway, as I get to study more data. It might turn out not to be the best description depending on what further study shows...

Regards,

--
Vincent
Ensis Sub Caelo
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Gordon Alexander




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PostPosted: Fri 14 Nov, 2014 5:07 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Vincent is correct that I originally was confused by the mention of the Brescia Spedona and then drawing of the Ljubljana. I the end though, I was still concerned about the difference in the identification of forward pivot points. I do not intend to accuse anyone of errors. Part of my interest in the these swords with far forward pivot points was that in playing with Vincent's stick density and mass point equations I could not easily balance a notional sword that way so that it also had the point mass close to the cross as Vincent was considering as a possible feature of desirable sword balance. I very much realize that his study is still a work in progress and that there will likely always be exceptions.
Finally, I'd like to apologize for partially hijacking this thread and diverting it from its subject.
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