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Luka Borscak




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Location: Croatia
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PostPosted: Wed 16 Oct, 2013 3:07 am    Post subject: Choosing 14th century armour parts by Pancel Kovacs         Reply with quote

Hello Ladies and Gentlemen. Happy While I haven't yet finished my 12th century kit I must already start buying stuff for my 14th century kit because of the safety rules of the tournaments I hope to participate in... Worried Since most guys who have bascinets have snouted bascinets, I decided for a globose klappvisor bascinet. And I also like it more, it somehow looks more serious to me. Happy The problem is I like both the Visby gauntlets and coat of plates and the other, full metal gauntlets and breastplate I attached below. Since 14th century is rather confusing because of its fast evolution of armour (I'm much better with swords. Big Grin ) I would like you to advise me which gauntlets and torso protection would fit better with my chosen helmet. Under this I will wear gambeson, mail with three quarter sleeves, padded cap and mail coif. Arms will probably be splinted and I hope a friend of mine will make them so I will get them rather cheap... Legs will come on later because they are not a legal target so I will buy them later just for "just in case" and for better looks. Wink











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Mark Griffin




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PostPosted: Wed 16 Oct, 2013 6:31 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Looking at the accuracy and general feel of the breastplate and later gauntlets I'd go with the two Wisby examples, the coat of plates and earlier gauntlets.

Does depend what your criteria for choosing is though, the solid steel versions will give you more protection probably. Certainly using the Wisby stuff with that bascinet will mean you are wearing an up to date helmet for the latter 14th cent but probably grandads hand and torso protection.

But I like the look of those and not so keen on the Churburg bp and the gauntlets, which are not something I'd get judging by their appearance.
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Mark Griffin




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PostPosted: Wed 16 Oct, 2013 6:34 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'd also consider replacing the vervelles, the shanks look spindly and I doubt, being brass, that they would stand up to much.
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Henrik Granlid




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PostPosted: Thu 17 Oct, 2013 12:37 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I would go with the coat of Plate, or rather, I would try to make my own since it can be more easely tailored to fit your body. I would try to find a better set of Steel Gauntlets, since those simply look off to me, but yes, I'd go for hourglass over Wisby on this. The Coat of plate was in use throughout the 14th century, but they grew closer and closer to the later brigandine in looks and moved away from the wisby box. Do a quick search on Corrazina, you could wear one of those and they aren't too hard to build yourself. Remember, historical faulds are rounded and not square.

Now, the reason I say CoP is that it can really look any way you want (but looks better if slightly globose or slimmed), because you can be wearing a lightly padded Aketon on top of it. The Aketon is a period garment that goes well with the helmet and they tend to look great as well.

Also, try to make a pourpoint like that of Charles de Blois for your under-garment rather than a thick gambeson that'll be hard to strap armour to, especially if you wear an Aketon on top of it all since that'll get you the extra padding needed.

Don't forget the padded aventail on the Bascinet, and remember to always keep your throat and vertebrae safe.



For more inspiration, you can check the 14th century page of www.viaarmorai.com and you could also look at contestants fighting in the Battle of the Nations (BotN) as well as Combat of the Thirty fighters (CotT) since a lot of the people in those favour later 14th century armour fashion, although CotT actually took place in 1351 and BotN does allow a lot of different centuries.

Stay safe, play hard, wear plate.
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Luka Borscak




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PostPosted: Thu 17 Oct, 2013 3:01 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks guys for the replies. The reason why I'm set on the Pancel Kovacs is that he has really good prices and he comes to events in Croatia so I might save myself the shipping for these rather big and heavy packages if he comes to Croatia in the next few months. Also I have seen his stuff in person and it really impressed me. And I really don't have time, skills or tools to make anything myself. I do make butted mail for my reenactment society but to work with steel plates I need tools and skills I just don't have. If you know of an armourer who does fine stuff for affordable prices and is in EU I am open for suggestions. www.viaarmorai.com link doesn't work for me... Soft kit is mostly made by my grandmother and if the stuff I have now won't function well under CoP or a breastplate I will get her jupon sketches to try making that. A garment over the CoP also sounds good, it would look nice with some heraldry on it... I was leaning towards the visby set like you guys but I was concerned if Visby gauntlets would be protective enough. Also, I was under impression the helmet I chose is earlier than snouted bascinets, around 1360 or 1370, isn't it?
What about these gauntlets, they look very protective but I'm not sure about authenticity:



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Ian S LaSpina




PostPosted: Thu 17 Oct, 2013 3:08 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Via Armorari was misspelled, here's the link http://www.viaarmorari.com/. They do some very very fine work. 100% honest opinion on the previously listed stuff, the only thing that looks to be shaped properly is the Coat of Plates. Everything else is a little off with regard to historical lines. Those mitten gauntlets you just linked are not appropriate for the 14th century.

Jacek Matera lists a lot of very nice stuff on Kokosh's Manufacture out of Poland you may want to check out. Often there's a lot of very nice historical pieces in stock.

Here are some helmets, but you can browse the other armor too:
http://www.gambeson.pl/medieval-on-line-shop/helmets.html

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"Monsters are dangerous, and just now Kings are dying like flies..."
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Henrik Granlid




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PostPosted: Thu 17 Oct, 2013 3:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Although not period, those gauntlets do look very protective, if they fit you well, they would probably be a good compromise since they seem to have a decent hourglass cuff.

Kokosh is great but expensive, it's good for inspiration if nothing else :-)

Perhaps you could ask Pancel if he could make you a more fitted coat of plates or a Corrazina instead of his standard coat?

And yes, go for the aketon on top of it all if you have the time and want a bit of extra protection as well as the chance to cover anything you're not sure is period.

And yes, the helmet is later, the reason I said to look at CotT people was that a lot of them fight in 1360-1370 gear
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Boris R.




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PostPosted: Thu 17 Oct, 2013 1:55 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here's from someone that actually bought armour pieces from Zsigmond. Firstly, I have exact same type of mitten gauntlets from him but my gauntlets are little too large (nevermind that I've sent him the dimensions to work with them), and the leather parts holding a leather glove had broken off, literary on the first day... on both gauntlets. Oh and the gloves themselves: they are just some simple working gloves, nothing fancy. Next I've got a plate from him and it is all kind of warped, the faulds do not fall in line, they rather stick out horizontally and it makes you look like a clown, the arm greaves are not evenly made... well that is what you get when you choose cheap over well made. Oh yeah one more thing: when I talked firstly to Zsigmond about the armour he said that he was coming to Koprivnica Rennfair last year and that he will bring the armour with him. Needless to say he did not come and afterwards he literary blackmailed me to pay for his travel expenses and the armour if I ever wanted to get it (after depositing some advanced payment). We met half way, so it was all on my account, both his and mine travel expenses, I had to literary wake in 3:00AM to drive three hours to some god forsaken field near Hodošanj close to Croatian-Hungarian border where he gave me the plate and was gone in 10 minutes time, that were his exact terms of bussiness. So, caveat emptor.

Now, if I was looking at 14.th century armour I would go with www.platener.eu and I would pay to him what ever price he's looking for. Just look at this helmet: http://www.platener.eu/klappvisierGermany1.html
This is the best reproduction of klappvisor bascinet from Deutsches Historisches Museum Berlin that anyone has done. Oh and he uses 2mm thick C45 spring steel, raised from a single sheet. That makes it bulletproof. My suggestion is: dont get the armour, get the helmet for all that money you are willing to spend. And then spend some more to buy good stuff not cheap.

Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.
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Luka Borscak




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PostPosted: Thu 17 Oct, 2013 3:01 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Boris R. wrote:
Here's from someone that actually bought armour pieces from Zsigmond. Firstly, I have exact same type of mitten gauntlets from him but my gauntlets are little too large (nevermind that I've sent him the dimensions to work with them), and the leather parts holding a leather glove had broken off, literary on the first day... on both gauntlets. Oh and the gloves themselves: they are just some simple working gloves, nothing fancy. Next I've got a plate from him and it is all kind of warped, the faulds do not fall in line, they rather stick out horizontally and it makes you look like a clown, the arm greaves are not evenly made... well that is what you get when you choose cheap over well made. Oh yeah one more thing: when I talked firstly to Zsigmond about the armour he said that he was coming to Koprivnica Rennfair last year and that he will bring the armour with him. Needless to say he did not come and afterwards he literary blackmailed me to pay for his travel expenses and the armour if I ever wanted to get it (after depositing some advanced payment). We met half way, so it was all on my account, both his and mine travel expenses, I had to literary wake in 3:00AM to drive three hours to some god forsaken field near Hodošanj close to Croatian-Hungarian border where he gave me the plate and was gone in 10 minutes time, that were his exact terms of bussiness. So, caveat emptor.

Now, if I was looking at 14.th century armour I would go with www.platener.eu and I would pay to him what ever price he's looking for. Just look at this helmet: http://www.platener.eu/klappvisierGermany1.html
This is the best reproduction of klappvisor bascinet from Deutsches Historisches Museum Berlin that anyone has done. Oh and he uses 2mm thick C45 spring steel, raised from a single sheet. That makes it bulletproof. My suggestion is: dont get the armour, get the helmet for all that money you are willing to spend. And then spend some more to buy good stuff not cheap.


Well, that doesn't sound nice. Worried Would you mind sending me a pm with approximate prices you paid for stuff you bought from Planeter?
P.S. Where are you from Croatia?
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Zsigmond Adamffy




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PostPosted: Sat 18 Apr, 2015 2:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

HI!

Dear Boris!

I feel sorry that you weren't statisfied with my stuff.
First of all in my opinion if you have some problems, or is you are unstatisfied best thing you can do is write to me!
Ask for change, or pay back the unfit thing. As you took the armour personally, you could say, no it is not good but you didnt.
About Koprivnica. I was invited with my group but after all, the organizers didn't make the contract. So in this way it wasnt up to me. Well about the shipment i have to say we were both too amateurs (happened 3 years ago) Now there is a lot of cheaper, faster solutions, than to travel trough a whole country personally. But i must admit 3 years ago Croatia wasnt EU. Theese solutions doesnt exist on those days.

all in all:
Feedback your problems to the maker first...and if I deny to help you then you can call me an uncorrect person (never happened)
Shipment: used to be hard to smuggle the armours trough the border , the situation changed.
and i hope that you remeber how much times i delivered other ordered projects, from other makers for free when i was in croatia anyway. I had no profit on them.
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Mart Shearer




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PostPosted: Sat 18 Apr, 2015 8:41 am    Post subject: Re: Choosing 14th century armour parts by Pancel Kovacs         Reply with quote

Luka Borscak wrote:
Under this I will wear gambeson, mail with three quarter sleeves, padded cap and mail coif.


Klappvisiers on bascinets can be found in art from about 1360-1420 or so. If you go with the Wisby pair of plates, then the Wisby-based gauntlet of plates is contemporary. If you chooses a globose breastplate, the hourglass gauntlets are more appropriate. During this period mail coifs have largely been replaced with the combination of a mail aventail attached to the bascinet, sometimes worn in conjunction with a mail pisaine collar or standard beneath for additional neck protection.

1360 fashion with straight waist -
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4884/14183/


1370-1380 fashion with "wasp-waist" -
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4353/7761/

ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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