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Danny Grigg




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PostPosted: Fri 10 Dec, 2010 12:28 am    Post subject: Bauernwehr-Hauswehre with quillons         Reply with quote

Does anyone have any information or thoughts about Bauernwehr-Hauswehre with quillons?

Over the last few years I've come across a lot of photos of original and replica Bauernwehr, but I've only ever found two photos of Bauernwehr with quillons.

The attached photo is from the book "Daggers and Fighting Knives of the Western World by Harold L. Peterson".

In the book Peterson dedicates half a page to "Peasant Knives (Hauswehren)". He only mentions those will quillons very briefly but stating "Some Hauswehren had quillons (Plate 43)."

The second photo I found at the following website:

http://www.hermann-historica.de/auktion/hhm48...at48_1.txt


So I'm guessing that these knives were pretty rare. Were they a regional variant perhaps, popular in a particular region only?

Is there any period art depicting them? Does anyone have any further photos to share?

Thanks

Danny



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Mark T




PostPosted: Fri 10 Dec, 2010 2:18 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Danny, This is a question that has interested me too, ever since seeing that photo in Peterson ... a Bauernwehr with quillons and a false edge would be fairly close in profile and handling to a Bowie, which I find intriguing.

Anyway, I've just had a quick look through Europäische Heib- und Stich- Waffen by Hartmut Kolling and Heinrich Muller, and did not see one, so that strikes one possible source off your list. (They do show one with a fairly substantial curved lower guard, but not full quillons.)

However, I don't read German, so not sure if they say anything about this question or not.

Chief Librarian/Curator, Isaac Leibowitz Librarmoury

Schallern sind sehr sexy!
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Martin Erben




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PostPosted: Fri 10 Dec, 2010 8:42 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The text on the Hermann Historica site says, that the quillons do not belong to the Hauswehr (und eines mit nicht zugehöriger Parierstange und Stichblatt). Anyway I would really like to hear about Hauswehren with quillons...
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Danny Grigg




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PostPosted: Fri 10 Dec, 2010 7:24 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Martin Erben wrote:
The text on the Hermann Historica site says, that the quillons do not belong to the Hauswehr (und eines mit nicht zugehöriger Parierstange und Stichblatt). Anyway I would really like to hear about Hauswehren with quillons...


Martin, I wasn't aware of that.

Can you translate the entire write up for me? When I use Google Translation it makes little sense.

"Vier Bauernwehren,

deutsch, 15.-17.Jhdt. Eisen. Ein extrem großes Exemplar mit Knaufkappe, ein weiteres mit Knaufkappe und muschelförmigem Stichblatt. Eines mit Beimesser und Pfriem und eines mit nicht zugehöriger Parierstange und Stichblatt. Gereinigte und konservierte Bodenfunde. Länge 36 bis 56 cm."

Thanks

Danny
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Martin Erben




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PostPosted: Sat 11 Dec, 2010 2:43 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sure I can.
The Text says:
Four Bauernwehre, german, 15th -17th century. Iron. An extremely big example with butt-cap, one other example with butt-cap and shell-shaped Nagel. One with by-knife and pricker and one with quillons which does not belong to it.
Cleaned and conserved earth-find. length 14,1 to 22 inches.

I hope it helps.
Martin
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Mark T




PostPosted: Tue 11 Jan, 2011 9:53 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Martin,

In the original, do you think this text means that the quillons do not belong on the Bauernwehr, or could it mean that the by-knife and pricker do not belong with (ie make a 'set' with) the Bauernwehr?

If the original wording allowed for that interpretation, perhaps that would make more sense - as we often see 'paired' items which were not initally made/carried together, and if Bauernwehr did occasionally have quillons, as Peterson suggests ...

Does anyone else have any images of Bauernwehr with quillons?

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Schallern sind sehr sexy!
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Mark T




PostPosted: Fri 14 Jan, 2011 2:57 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Below is the image from Peterson, so you don't need to download it.

I have a question: from the shadows / changes in colour, and from the profile on the right hand side, does it look to anyone else that this one has both a nagel as well as those quillons?

Danny's scan shows it a little, but checking the original in my 1st edition of Peterson shows a clear strip of reflection on the left hand side where it looks like the nagel is, as well as a less distinct reflection below this, near the ricasso, where the base of the nagel would be.

While this might not be common on many knives throughout history, it does make sense from a defensive / weapons use point of view. One of the best examples of modern thinking and design in this regard is James Keating's Crossada (that has a downward-curved crossguard as well as ball-terminalled cross-quillons), as well as the slight diamond-shaped flare on the sides of the crossguard on Bill Bagwell's Hell's Belle Bowie - these flares are very subtle, but are enough to catch an opponent's blade if they try to run down the length of yours.

Anyone else see a nagel here, or is it just me?

Mark T



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Paul Hansen




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PostPosted: Fri 14 Jan, 2011 3:45 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mark T wrote:
In the original, do you think this text means that the quillons do not belong on the Bauernwehr, or could it mean that the by-knife and pricker do not belong with (ie make a 'set' with) the Bauernwehr?

I'm not a native speaker, but to me the text is quite clear:

Eines mit Beimesser und Pfriem = One and with by-knife and pricker
und = and
eines mit nicht zugehöriger Parierstange und Stichblatt. = one with quillons that do not belong to it
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Matthijs Witsenburg




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PostPosted: Fri 14 Jan, 2011 4:19 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

What Paul said. The description encompasses four different knives, not including the by-knife. Ein or eines (a, one) denotes the next knife. See the picture in the first post.
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Mark T




PostPosted: Fri 14 Jan, 2011 2:08 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Paul and Matthijs,
Thanks for the clarification!

Now, does anyone else see a nagel on the Bauernwehr with quillons?

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Jon Wolfe




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PostPosted: Thu 17 Mar, 2011 10:01 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I don't have anything new to add, other than theory about why the quillons may have been "added" to the one knife. Given the date range that it has been placed in, the knife may have had quillons and/or side-ring, since to me it more resembles a side-ring instead of a nagel, added to it in order for the weapon to function as a parrying dagger. The nagel already functioned in in a similar manner to a side-ring, just add quillons, and you have a cheap solution for the need of a parrying dagger, without having to buy an entirely new weapon.

Hurray, practicality!

I'm pretty sure I see the nagel on the second example as well, Mark.
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Thu 17 Mar, 2011 10:13 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The bowie-bauernwehr similarity has interested me as well. I've set aside an Atlanta Cutlery bowie blade to finish as a mashup between a bauernwehr and early bowie. The nagel seems like such an obvious benefit in carriage and knife fighting that I'm thinking about adding one to my project. Of course, there's also something to be said for a flat profile in a sidearm. Oooh...how about a folding nagel?
-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)


Last edited by Sean Flynt on Thu 17 Mar, 2011 10:34 am; edited 1 time in total
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Thu 17 Mar, 2011 10:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

These are all 1460-1500, clustered around 1490. One of 'em might be considered a hunting sword, but that one does at least appear to be single-edged, judging from the curved grip. It's probably a minor distinction, anyway. The second knife shown below does appear to have short quillons and a curved nagel.


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-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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