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William P
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 Posted: Wed 18 Jan, 2012 5:56 am Post subject: |
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the reason i asked about the period appropriateness of it was that i have a hanwei practical norman sword, and the practical swords have fibreglass scabbards, so i see this as a oppertunity to inexpensively give my scabbard a more period look, though my group is 10th century varngian guard so, therein lies the question whether this method will suit the varangian/ byzantines?
thats the next question
bu overall ill probably wrap some convas around my fibreglass scabbard and paint it to make it seem LESS synthetic.
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Matthew Bunker
Location: Somerset UK Joined: 02 Apr 2009
Posts: 483
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| Posted: Wed 18 Jan, 2012 6:09 am Post subject: |
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The Balnakeil 'Viking' scabbard was made of oak (which is an unusual choice, given that it stains iron rather badly in my experience), wrapped in linen and bound with linen tape.
That's mid/late 10th century.
"If a Greek can do it, two Englishman certainly can !"
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Johan Gemvik
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| Posted: Wed 18 Jan, 2012 3:23 pm Post subject: |
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Matthew, if you line the oak with goat or sheep pelt, as many scabbards from viking age have, it won't come into direct contact with the blade so the staining may not have been an issue.
Still, oak means it's probably a heavy scabbard compared to using lindenwood or pine which make for fairly lightweight ones. Why would one want that extra weight?
A pet theory of mine is they used the scabbards to protect the shield leg, or they could adjust it to hang there at need. You can see Anglo Saxon warriors with no leg armour on the Bayeux tapestry with the scabbard hanging over the shield leg in a way that would probably ward off sword cuts to it. Straight down the leg, in contrast to other depictions (i.e. normand warriors in maille covering the thigh) where the swords usually sit at an angle from the hip. Just a theory though. As always, the real reasons could be something completely different, even just a fashion statement.
Having done some simple cutting tests on scabbard material with sharps they seem awful hard to cut through though. You can ruin a scabbard, sure, but to actually bifurcate it when hanging free and 90 degrees against the grain is really hard work and takes a great many cuts, probably more than you'll have time for in a real battle unless you're using a great axe or similar. But then you could just hook it aside or smash through the shield in the first place anyway.
"The Dwarf sees farther than the Giant when he has the giant's shoulder to mount on" -Coleridge
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William P
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| Posted: Wed 18 Jan, 2012 8:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Matthew Bunker wrote: | The Balnakeil 'Viking' scabbard was made of oak (which is an unusual choice, given that it stains iron rather badly in my experience), wrapped in linen and bound with linen tape.
That's mid/late 10th century. |
that is EXCELLENT to know, the fact its in scotland means it has less bearing on the russian varangians though
(my group represents the period of the varangian guard when it was first formed in 988 AD, so the population is largely rus, and slavic with a few 'vikings' thrown in too), so having stuff based on finds from scotland is somewhat of an excercise in cherry picking evidence.
also, the balnakeil scabbard was from a childs grave, could it be linen and oak (which apparenttly stains iron) because it wasnt intended to be a functional war kit?
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Matthew Bunker
Location: Somerset UK Joined: 02 Apr 2009
Posts: 483
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| Posted: Thu 19 Jan, 2012 1:31 am Post subject: |
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| Johan Gemvik wrote: | Matthew, if you line the oak with goat or sheep pelt, as many scabbards from viking age have, it won't come into direct contact with the blade so the staining may not have been an issue.
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I always line my scabbards. With the one I made using oak lathes, it was lined with sheepskin. It was the oils in the skin that drew the tannin from the oak through onto the blade, leaving black staining and pitting after the blade had been in the scabbard for about a month.
"If a Greek can do it, two Englishman certainly can !"
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Matthew Bunker
Location: Somerset UK Joined: 02 Apr 2009
Posts: 483
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| Posted: Thu 19 Jan, 2012 1:38 am Post subject: |
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| William P wrote: |
also, the balnakeil scabbard was from a childs grave, could it be linen and oak (which apparenttly stains iron) because it wasnt intended to be a functional war kit? |
Childs grave, but not a child's sword. Whilst I think it's likely that some burial items were representative rather than actual (particularly shields with a diameter of less than 60cm...but that's another debate), I don't see reason to doubt that this the scabbard was non-functional.
I've not tested it myself but I've been told (and it makes sense) that a linen covered scabbard that's been waxed is a lot more water resitant than a leather covered one.
"If a Greek can do it, two Englishman certainly can !"
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Johan Gemvik
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| Posted: Thu 19 Jan, 2012 2:27 am Post subject: |
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| Matthew Bunker wrote: | | Johan Gemvik wrote: | Matthew, if you line the oak with goat or sheep pelt, as many scabbards from viking age have, it won't come into direct contact with the blade so the staining may not have been an issue.
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I always line my scabbards. With the one I made using oak lathes, it was lined with sheepskin. It was the oils in the skin that drew the tannin from the oak through onto the blade, leaving black staining and pitting after the blade had been in the scabbard for about a month. |
That's very interesting! Of course the oil could be a conduit of chemicals if it reached both the oak and the steel. I didn't think of that.
So the question is still then, why did they use oak historically in the first place? Only for ceremonial use (oak may have had a special meaning for burial weapons) or because it's a heavy and strong wood that wouldn't be easily smashed to pieces?
Are there more finds with oak being used for scabbards or perhaps other things related to weapons? I've heard of stout shields made from oak, but this was far later.
"The Dwarf sees farther than the Giant when he has the giant's shoulder to mount on" -Coleridge
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Johan Gemvik
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| Posted: Thu 19 Jan, 2012 2:30 am Post subject: |
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[quote="Matthew Bunker"] | William P wrote: |
I've not tested it myself but I've been told (and it makes sense) that a linen covered scabbard that's been waxed is a lot more water resitant than a leather covered one. |
Sounds like it could be. Of course one could waterproof leather too by deep waxing it, but just plain leather covering like most scabbard finds seem to be won't deter water all that much unless you've just greased or oiled it up (like you'd do with boots).
"The Dwarf sees farther than the Giant when he has the giant's shoulder to mount on" -Coleridge
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Josh Wilson
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| Posted: Sun 10 Dec, 2017 10:36 am Post subject: |
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I just found this thread while trying to figure out how I wanted to do scabbard for an 11th Century sword I'm working on. Once you got your scabbard made, how did you attach the belt or baldric to it? Thanks!
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