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Kel Rekuta




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PostPosted: Tue 19 Apr, 2011 11:52 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ian S LaSpina wrote:


I own a stainless haubergeon from icefalcon. It looks good, was reasonably priced, but it's pretty heavy and definitely wears on you when it's on for long periods of time. Question about the mild GDFB stuff though, did it come covered in shipping grease? And if so, how did you clean it off without rusting it? I cleaned my stainless with a solution of water and simple green, but would be very hesitant to do that with mild steel. Honestly though, the weight of my stainless often makes me not want to wear it.


I've found the stuff more like bearing grease. Paint thinner, acetone, MEK all worked on it. Water based degreaser like Simple Green and other stuff for power washers also worked but not as quickly and of course needed immediate water removal after cleaning. Wood alcohol did the trick as would WD40 type products I suppose. Liquid Turtle wax was easy to apply then but I don't care for its longevity. I plan to go back to light oils after I clean each piece again.

Oh, yeah. If less than thirty pounds of mail is bothersome, don't get a full kit of plate. Mail alone is nothing - provided you have good posture. The modern human "slouch" posture is killer in harness. Every new student finds that out the very first day they put on kit. Consider that next time you wear your harness. Concentrate on keeping your head up, back straight and hips under your upper body. Its a world of difference.
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William Frisbee




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PostPosted: Tue 19 Apr, 2011 12:04 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Kel Rekuta wrote:

Oh, yeah. If less than thirty pounds of mail is bothersome, don't get a full kit of plate. Mail alone is nothing - provided you have good posture. The modern human "slouch" posture is killer in harness. Every new student finds that out the very first day they put on kit. Consider that next time you wear your harness. Concentrate on keeping your head up, back straight and hips under your upper body. Its a world of difference.


Then you've never worn plate properly.

Chain puts all its weight on your shoulders and waist (your natural waist, not the modern thinking of it).

Plate is distributed and balanced when pointed properly.

I'd much rather be in my plate harness than just a hauberk of chain any day.
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Kel Rekuta




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PostPosted: Tue 19 Apr, 2011 1:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

William Frisbee wrote:
Kel Rekuta wrote:

Oh, yeah. If less than thirty pounds of mail is bothersome, don't get a full kit of plate. Mail alone is nothing - provided you have good posture. The modern human "slouch" posture is killer in harness. Every new student finds that out the very first day they put on kit. Consider that next time you wear your harness. Concentrate on keeping your head up, back straight and hips under your upper body. Its a world of difference.


Then you've never worn plate properly.

Chain puts all its weight on your shoulders and waist (your natural waist, not the modern thinking of it).

Plate is distributed and balanced when pointed properly.

I'd much rather be in my plate harness than just a hauberk of chain any day.


Please. Wink

Mail is better worn pointed, especially for those that do 13thC representations. Any armour has to fit you to begin with but moving and working in it requires much more in terms of balance, posture and stamina. Many people get armour for show and to pose for photos. I will presume you actually fight in yours as you have a strong opinion on the matter. It would be helpful if you were aware that other people study these arts, in harness, as well.
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William Frisbee




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PostPosted: Tue 19 Apr, 2011 1:46 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Kel Rekuta wrote:


Please. Wink

Mail is better worn pointed, especially for those that do 13thC representations. Any armour has to fit you to begin with but moving and working in it requires much more in terms of balance, posture and stamina. Many people get armour for show and to pose for photos. I will presume you actually fight in yours as you have a strong opinion on the matter. It would be helpful if you were aware that other people study these arts, in harness, as well.


Again, I'd GLADLY wear plate vs. a set of mail.

And yes, I actually do fight in mine. I used to have a 13thC kit, complete with chausses, muffler and mittens. After a day in it... blech. The plate? No big deal. I have a late 14thC kit now mostly based around the Churburg segmented BP and hunskiull, but am transitioning to a newer 1407-1410 set with a full cuirass and grand bascinet.

How actually would you point mail anyways? I've never seen historic evidence of pointed chain other than the chausses...
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Thom R.




PostPosted: Tue 19 Apr, 2011 1:54 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I would like to politely suggest that the 27 to 17 pound difference does not have to do with the stainless vs mild flat ring but probably has to do with the two hauberks being different tube (chest) sizes. I have both a stainless flat ring dome riveted and a mild flat ring wedge riveted and they are less than 2 pounds different - (with the wedge riveted mild being the heavier one Wink )

I am sure Andre Sinou (Icefalcon), who retails the stuff, can confirm or provide more info.
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William Frisbee




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PostPosted: Tue 19 Apr, 2011 2:38 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thom R. wrote:
I would like to politely suggest that the 27 to 17 pound difference does not have to do with the stainless vs mild flat ring but probably has to do with the two hauberks being different tube (chest) sizes. I have both a stainless flat ring dome riveted and a mild flat ring wedge riveted and they are less than 2 pounds different - (with the wedge riveted mild being the heavier one Wink )

I am sure Andre Sinou (Icefalcon), who retails the stuff, can confirm or provide more info.


Actually both my haubergons were very close close to the same size...
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Dan Howard




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PostPosted: Tue 19 Apr, 2011 2:59 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Kel has a point. If your mail is specifically tailored to fit you then it doesn't place all of its weight on the shoulders and hips. No commercially-produced mail is properly fitted just like no "off the rack" suit is properly fitted. Pointing it distributes the weight even further and is a good option if you can't get someone to tailor it properly.
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William Frisbee




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PostPosted: Tue 19 Apr, 2011 3:58 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'd like to know how. Where else is the mail suspended from? Your shoulders and your belt. At no other area is it attached to you and the weight spread out.

There are plenty of images of mail in a lot of parts of Europe and it is all basically worn the same.

Fitted or not. It might not be baggy, or it may fit to the soldier's form better, but a better fit does not mean most of the weight of the armour is on the shoulders and waist.

I'd be more than happy to learn otherwise, but I've never seen chain pointed to anything unless it was voiders. I've seen no images of pointed mail. Plenty of images of mail shirts, brynes, hauberks and haubergeons being pulled over various under armour clothing, but no points.

How would you do so anyways? Chain moves much more than plate and is rather abrasive to cords of any type.
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Jean Thibodeau




PostPosted: Tue 19 Apr, 2011 7:47 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

William Frisbee wrote:
I'd like to know how. Where else is the mail suspended from? Your shoulders and your belt. At no other area is it attached to you and the weight spread out.


I agree that shoulders and waist will be where the maille will be supported if one uses a tight belt and blouses the maille a bit, but if the maille is fitted such as the gambison/hacketon used under it is tight , but not too tight, a certain amount of friction between the maile and arming garment under the maille might help spread the weight more evenly ?


Just speculation on my part. Wink

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Ian S LaSpina




PostPosted: Tue 19 Apr, 2011 7:49 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Kel Rekuta wrote:

Oh, yeah. If less than thirty pounds of mail is bothersome, don't get a full kit of plate. Mail alone is nothing - provided you have good posture. The modern human "slouch" posture is killer in harness. Every new student finds that out the very first day they put on kit. Consider that next time you wear your harness. Concentrate on keeping your head up, back straight and hips under your upper body. Its a world of difference.


I'm hardly a stranger to carrying awkward weight improperly and having to move athletically in said gear as a member of the military. I find wearing plate much more comfortable than carrying 60lbs of gear in a ruck through the mountains of Maine during survival training. I do however find wearing maille almost as awkward and annoying. Although I will admit, flying helicopters has lead to terrible posture, so I will concede that that is indeed part of the issue.

I would be interested to hear how one would point maille to a padded gambeson to distribute that weight, because even with a tight belt at my waist (not the modern waist, but the one near your belly button), I still feel a majority of the weight on my shoulders. I also fail to see how the bagginess of the maille would necessarily affect how the weight is distributed, other than poorly fitted maille simply being heavier due to the superfluous excess of rings. There has to be some bagginess or it seems like just getting in and out of the haubergeon would prove quite a challenge. Adding plate on top of maille has never really added all that much of a strain compared to just the haubergeon sans plate bits. Also, as Mr. Frisbee has asked, is there historical precedent for pointing maille?

"Monsters are dangerous, and just now Kings are dying like flies..."
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Eric G.




PostPosted: Tue 19 Apr, 2011 8:08 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I see that this topic has grown in the asking...

Not to create another rabbit trail or anything, but perhaps some of you could help me with another mail related question.

How necessary is an arming coat or gambeson underneath mail? I ask for a very important reason. You see, I live in Arizona where it is hot nine months out of the year and uncomfortably warm the other three. I figured that I would just wear a shirt underneath the mail so that I don't get heat stroke. I suppose I could wear one of those camelback water bottles to the renaissance fair but that would be even less period than a shirt...

If the consensus is that a shirt would be too little padding and completely uncomfortable, are there any of you out there that can recommend a cooler gambeson? (if there is such a thing) How did people who lived in warmer climates do it in antiquity?

Ok, so I guess that makes 3 questions...

Eric Gregersen
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Jean Thibodeau




PostPosted: Tue 19 Apr, 2011 8:26 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Eric Gregersen wrote:

How necessary is an arming coat or gambeson underneath mail?
Ok, so I guess that makes 3 questions...


For real fighting in period a gambeson is very useful although their are periods where we have no evidence they where used as a specialized garment ( but that is an other endless debate ).

For costume use you at least need something thick enough so that the maille wont rub you skin raw: A heavy cotton hoody would work for the body and the hood is also useful if wearing a coif.

As far as period authenticity it depends if you want or need your underwear to be period Wink Razz or you only care that whatever is visible looks reasonably authentic. ( standards here can vary a great deal from " good enough for me " to extreme attention to historical details ).

Short answer, for costume use you need some sort of shirt under the maille but you could use something very modern that has fibers that wick away sweat away from your skin.

The alternate theory is to use a thick period gambison that when it gets saturated with sweat will actually cool you down in even very hot conditions if the heat is a dry heat ...... tropical humid Amazon type weather is more a challenge since evaporation won't do much to cool you down.

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Thom R.




PostPosted: Tue 19 Apr, 2011 9:19 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I am not trying to be argumentative because for the typical purpose that people buy this riveted mail for (SCA and LH portrayal) the wedge riveted has some superior qualities over the dome riveted as I stated earlier (less abrasion to garments and more fluid).

However......... the OP was asking advice about what type of mail to buy. As far as weight without a doubt the 6mm solid ring is much heavier than any of the 9mm flat ring.

But... I don't think that one should buy wedge riveted 9mm flat ring with the expectation that it is less weight than 9mm dome riveted flat ring. I don't think that is consistently the case. From my own experience, and the KOA and GDFB website listings confirm this - there is very little weight difference between dome and wedge riveted 9mm flat ring (for the same steel type). Nor is there much difference between stainless 9mm and mild 9mm flat ring either (for the same type of rivets). Having said that I would not be surprised that there could be some difference from batch to batch and shirt to shirt given the quality of the manufacturing we are talking about. In general the 48 inch tubes tend to be 8-10 pounds lighter than the 60 inch tubes for the same sleeve length.

And this new titanium riveted mail that is just starting to come out sounds like it is really light! Eek!
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William Frisbee




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PostPosted: Tue 19 Apr, 2011 9:49 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thom R. wrote:
And this new titanium riveted mail that is just starting to come out sounds like it is really light! Eek!


Yeah but I would think it would be brittle... Ti is...
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Mike O'Hara




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PostPosted: Tue 19 Apr, 2011 11:29 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

HI all

I have a wedge-riveted hauberk as part of a gallowglass (apologies for the Anglicizing) kit and I wear it with just a linen shirt underneath, which seems to be appropriate although some images also suggest a cotun was worn underneath.

The maille was made by an Indian manfuacturer but not one of the mass producers and sits really well but as commented by others, basically supported by shoulders and waist.

I've found wearing it all day no major issue but cannot comment on its comparison to plate as I have never worn that.

I've trained and competed in the maille (and a brigandine over it) in 28degC (mid 80s) temperatures with moderate levels of relative humidity and found it OK as long as I kept pouring water over my head. The key issues for training in hot temperatures is how much of your body is exposed and can sweat away the excess heat. The head is a good heat exchanger under the right conditions.

I will note on the same day as I was wearing the maille a couple of jousters were throwing up from excess heat and a competitor in sword and buckler wearing plate had to retire due to heat exhaustion.

cheers

mike

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Location: Plimmerton, New Zealand
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Sander Marechal




PostPosted: Wed 20 Apr, 2011 12:20 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here's another call for examples of how to point maille for better weight distribution. Historical or not, I might give it a try just for the sake of comfort.
The Knights Hospitaller: http://www.hospitaalridders.nl
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William Frisbee




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PostPosted: Wed 20 Apr, 2011 6:53 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sander, did you post a link? I cannot see one in your post.
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Randall Moffett




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PostPosted: Wed 20 Apr, 2011 8:24 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I have tailored some mail to myself and to me the advantage over unaltered mail seems mostly to be in the decreased weight. Some likely have an extra 5-10 pounds of mail because they are wearing massive hauberks and haubergeons. I still feel like most of my mail's weight rests on my shoulders and belt but it does not really bother me much. Wore it basically all day from 7am till 9 pm and it was no issue. That said wearing my plate armour I find a bit more comfortable. Wearing my mail, plate and all textile armour is still a bit hard to wear all day for me. That said mail hauberks are not all the same either so I figure there are a much wider variety of mail that was used than is commonly held.

RPM
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Sander Marechal




PostPosted: Wed 20 Apr, 2011 9:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

William Frisbee wrote:
Sander, did you post a link? I cannot see one in your post.


Nope. I was just echoing your call for examples of how to point mail. I'm interested in seeing how it could be done, historical or not.

The Knights Hospitaller: http://www.hospitaalridders.nl
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Johan Gemvik




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PostPosted: Wed 20 Apr, 2011 9:41 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Like Randall says, tayloring the maille has the main benefit of becoming lighter as excess weave can be removed from the haubergon or hauberk. Another benefit of tayloring is to add extra weave in the armpits to allow for full and free movement so you don't have to pull or even lift a part of the torso covering maille (paricularly the side from armpit to hip) when raising or even moving your arms. This makes for a huge difference in comfort and how fast you tire in it.

Regarding the maille vs plate I'm just throwing this one in: In the case of superior armour they were most often worn together and complemented each other. Either as multiple layers as in the case of the Churnbourg armour, or with voiders in the gaps of the plate or the armour isn't really a full cap a pied. This is often overlooked today by all too many re-enactors and historical fencers.
Maille is unsurpassed for flexible areas like armpits and back of the legs. Plate is unsurpassed for limb and comparatively stiff torso protection. But most certainly a well made plate armour fits the body not only when standing still and upright but canons and greaves are shaped to fit the play of the muscles under it, a chest plate should be made also to move with the torso and not hinder movement. Made just right they feel like a part of your body.
Plate will chafe more though if worn days on end and maille if not too heavy and tailored right will feel more like a heavy jacket than a chafing shell. I suspect that historically maille was much preferred during extended sieges and plate only used when there was time to prepare for a sally or long expected repelling battle at a breech. You can throw a maille on quick, it's more like a cloth garment but sure it's heavy if it's a full body of it. But a plate suit takes a while to put on and may require some assistance.

One other aspect to consider that has also been mentioned is the possibility of plate being made lighter than maille. Thin plate can be quite light and still give good protection, some full body plate armours were as light as 12 kg. That's perhaps half or even 1/3 the weight of a full maille. The weight itself is also an aspect is how comfortable armour feels to the wearer.

German flat ring maille is often about 30% lighter than round ring today. If this is historically accurate or due to modern manufacturing reasons I'm not sure. But it would mean that flat ring maille will be 30% more "comfortable" from the lighter weight alone than round ring, in general.

"The Dwarf sees farther than the Giant when he has the giant's shoulder to mount on" -Coleridge
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