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M. Adair Orr




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PostPosted: Fri 11 Oct, 2013 9:31 am    Post subject: Ottoman Arsenal at Istanbul         Reply with quote

I was re-reading an article of Bashford Dean's visit to the Ottoman armoury in istanbul, St. Irene. The story of which was puplished in an article by the Metropolitan Museum of Art. Like Chalcis, Rhodes, or the Maria della Grazie Curtatone discoveries is one of those magical and random stashes of arms and armour that we will never see again.

For students of armour these discoveries are unparalleled, but I recently took a look at the photos Bashford Dean took of the swords from the St. Irene stash and I thought I would post some photos here for anyone who hasn't seen these. I'm interested in anything anyone has to say about these, particularly the wide bladed examples shown hanging in the wall panoply. Dates, current locations, accession numbers would be great.




-A.
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M. Adair Orr




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PostPosted: Fri 11 Oct, 2013 9:36 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sorry all, I'll figure out the photos later. I have to relearn the game every time for every different forum.

[color=darkred](Edit) Thank you Nathan for fixing the photos. I'll make a note here somewhere to myself for next time.[/color]

-Adair


Last edited by M. Adair Orr on Fri 11 Oct, 2013 10:52 am; edited 1 time in total
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Fri 11 Oct, 2013 10:13 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

M. Adair Orr wrote:
Sorry all, I'll figure out the photos later. I have to relearn the game every time for every different forum.

-Adair


You had "Disable BBCode in this post" checked. I fixed your post. Please note that is why I require all posts be previewed before posting. Read the post preview before you post it and you'll not make this mistake again. Happy

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Kai Lawson




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PostPosted: Fri 11 Oct, 2013 11:53 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It looks like there are four or so Alexandria-esque XVIIIc's in that large criss-cross of blades. Are there any more photos like the first one?
"And they crossed swords."
--William Goldman, alias S. Morgenstern
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Bryan Heff




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PostPosted: Fri 11 Oct, 2013 2:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Kai Lawson wrote:
It looks like there are four or so Alexandria-esque XVIIIc's in that large criss-cross of blades. Are there any more photos like the first one?


Agreed, THAT is an intriguing photo. I would like to get a better look at those swords at the top as well, very little profile taper, hard to make out the cross guard too. Very interesting picture.
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Neil Melville




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PostPosted: Sat 12 Oct, 2013 8:00 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Kai,
Stuart Pyhrr of the Met. wrote an article on the Ottoman arsenal with 22 contemporary photos, not all of them swords, including the one posted here, in the London Park Lane Arms Fair catalogue of 2007. If you can't get hold of a copy you could try contacting Dr Pyhrr direct as he will have kept a copy. The photos are well worth a look.
Neil

N Melville
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Daniel Wallace




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PostPosted: Sat 12 Oct, 2013 8:04 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

bog beefy broad bladed swords. two at the top look like they have a square pummel. the grips on them are interesting, i can't tell from the photos but are these small rain guards distorted, or are the grips of the swords actually lobed in that fashion?
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M. Adair Orr




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PostPosted: Sat 12 Oct, 2013 10:00 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

These photos came from the Stuart Phyrr article. It is available online through the Metropolitan Museum of Art website. These are the only photos of swords in the article. www.metmuseum.org/pubs/journals/1/pdf/1512872...pdf‎

I thought the lobes beside the hilts were perhaps the brackets used to support the swords in the panoply.

The surviving armour from the photos, and the focus of the article, found its way to several collections, including the Met, and the Royal Armouries. DId some of these swords find their way as well? I still have some digging to do in my library.

-A.
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M. Adair Orr




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PostPosted: Sat 12 Oct, 2013 10:14 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This should have been a little more obvious to me, this sword from the Metropolitan Museum of Art must be one of those shown in the panoply:

http://www.myArmoury.com/albums/photo/3422.html

Edit: Also the XVa Alexandria sword at the Royal Armouries must be one of these. Where did they all wind up?

OK-all the information is already waiting for me on this forum. I guess I need to hone my searching skills. Books are so much more fun if you have them at hand.

The following is from a thread started by Roger Hooper:

(Arms and Armor Custom Alexandrian Arsenal type XXa Sword http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=27986)

"In 1517 the Turks conquered Egypt and removed the Alexandrian Arsenal swords to Istanbul, where they were installed in another arsenal in the former Church of St Irene. Sixty-two of them are still in Istanbul in the Askeri Museum. A fair number were sold, starting in the 19th century, and can now be found in private collections and museums in Europe and North America."

Thanks Roger for the history. I'd still like to identify what swords are where are accession numbers would be great if anyone has them to offer.

-A.
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Boris Bedrosov




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PostPosted: Sat 12 Oct, 2013 2:08 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

As you noted - some of them are in Askeri Museum now.
This link http://bbedrosov.snimka.bg/hobby/askeri-myuze...iya.451965 are the pictures from my visit there. You could find some very intriguing items here. The swords are in the last third of the album.

Regarding your pictures, I find some of the helmets and swords from the second one very familiar; especially the third sword from left to right. I think it's quite similar (if not the same) to this one (again third from left)









And its tablet



Barely visible on the third row from the top is what I personally consider as its inventory "Env. №2406 or 2408" (I'm not quite sure which one of them)

"Everyone who has the right to wear a long sword, has to remember that his sword is his soul,
and he has to separate from it when he separates from his life"

Tokugawa Ieyasu
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Kai Lawson




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PostPosted: Sat 12 Oct, 2013 3:03 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Wow Mr. Bedrosov--that album is great! Look at all the cool stuff! Thanks for the link
"And they crossed swords."
--William Goldman, alias S. Morgenstern
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Henrik Zoltan Toth




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PostPosted: Sun 13 Oct, 2013 1:27 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

In the first photo the two crossed swords one the top are looking like the hungarian ones (15th. Century) in the catalogs of Hermann Historica, and are common in our museums (both with straight and curwed armguard), though in my books they are written to be of Balkanian origin.
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Eric S




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PostPosted: Mon 14 Oct, 2013 7:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Ottoman Arsenal at Istanbul         Reply with quote

M. Adair Orr wrote:
I was re-reading an article of Bashford Dean's visit to the Ottoman armoury in istanbul, St. Irene. The story of which was puplished in an article by the Metropolitan Museum of Art. Like Chalcis, Rhodes, or the Maria della Grazie Curtatone discoveries is one of those magical and random stashes of arms and armour that we will never see again.

For students of armour these discoveries are unparalleled, but I recently took a look at the photos Bashford Dean took of the swords from the St. Irene stash and I thought I would post some photos here for anyone who hasn't seen these. I'm interested in anything anyone has to say about these, particularly the wide bladed examples shown hanging in the wall panoply. Dates, current locations, accession numbers would be great.
Here is a link to a downloadable pdf of the article.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CEMQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.metmuseum.org%2Fpubs%2Fjournals%2F1%2Fpdf%2F1512872.pdf.bannered.pdf&ei=O6VcUqSgIqWg2AW17oH4Dw&usg=AFQjCNH9l-LHj5-C44ClVu25S9PDXdKqaA&bvm=bv.53899372,d.b2I
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Peter Johnsson




PostPosted: Mon 14 Oct, 2013 9:44 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Recent publication of swords from the Istanbul/Alexandria arsenal(-s) has been made by Clive Thomas in several issues of the Park Lane Arms Fair.
I will later post the years that some of these articles were published.
Clive Thomas posts on this forum himself from time to time. Perhaps we will tune in?

The famous Alexandria arsenal weapons were taken from Alexandria in the 16th century when the city were taken by the Turks. These trophies were then displayed in the St. Irene arsenal in Istanbul.
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Cornelis Tromp




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PostPosted: Wed 16 Oct, 2013 9:50 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

the four broad truly beautiful swords are of type XVIIIc, Clive Thomas has studied and found a lot about these swords and published several really outstanding articles in the Londen Park Lane Arms Fair cataloques;
- A distinctive group of swords from the arsenal of alexandria
- The Mamluk conquest of cyprus

I believe the two swords on the left are not localized yet, the second on the upper right is the leeds castle sword acc. No. AL40, the lower right sword is in the military museum in istanbul acc. no.14776.

these amazing cutting swords were donated within the rign of the sultan al-Mu'ayyad Shaykh ,in all probability given to build the Lusignan Mamluk treaty of 1414.
These swords actually may have been Manufactured for this purpose. (conclusion personal email correspondence with Clive thomas)

best,

jasper
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