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Randall Moffett
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 Posted: Mon 11 Nov, 2013 5:21 am Post subject: |
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Second that. An Excellent book. The pictures for the most part I'd assume would be fine in greyscale. And they are very nice reconstructions.
RPM
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Dan Howard
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| Posted: Sun 17 Nov, 2013 5:32 am Post subject: mitra |
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Most rigid cuirasses stop at about navel level so as not to interfere with any flexibility around the abdomen, but this leaves the stomach vulnerable. The mitra was a metal plate that loosely hung off the bottom of the cuirass, attached with rings, to protect the stomach without hindering flexibility. There are a few examples in various museums and Homer mentions them more than once. I'm pretty sure that Agamemnon didn't wear a mitra plate but my reconstruction is getting one anyway. I want to see how they function and perhaps learn why they weren't used on later cuirasses. In addition, it is going to look very cool 
 Attachment: 171.17 KB
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen and Sword Books
Last edited by Dan Howard on Sun 17 Nov, 2013 12:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Matthew Amt
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| Posted: Sun 17 Nov, 2013 7:45 am Post subject: Re: mitra |
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| Dan Howard wrote: | | In addition, it is going to look very cool |
Yah, no kidding! Did I mention jealousy, by the way?
Matthew
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Dan Howard
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| Posted: Thu 13 Feb, 2014 11:28 pm Post subject: |
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The pauldrons are coming along.
Attachment: 217.02 KB
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen and Sword Books
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Nat Lamb
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| Posted: Fri 14 Feb, 2014 1:59 am Post subject: |
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Sweeeeeeeeeet!
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William P
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| Posted: Sun 16 Feb, 2014 4:44 pm Post subject: |
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I am loving those pauldrons... it still, slightly boggles my mind that bronze age armour pretty much was creating full suitsof plate armour.to an extent, a good 2000-3000 years before the reintroduction of full plate in the medieval period.. so seeing things like this and the dendra panoply is just a wow moment.
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Dan Howard
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| Posted: Tue 18 Feb, 2014 1:51 am Post subject: |
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Rear view
Attachment: 175.44 KB
pauldron - rear
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen and Sword Books
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Kai Lawson
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| Posted: Tue 18 Feb, 2014 7:55 am Post subject: |
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The herringbone borders really bring the two pauldrons together.
"And they crossed swords."
--William Goldman, alias S. Morgenstern
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Shahril Dzulkifli
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| Posted: Tue 18 Feb, 2014 9:09 am Post subject: Agamemnon's cuirass |
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That cuirass! I feel like I'm seeing things. 
“You have power over your mind - not outside events. Realize this, and you will find strength”
- Marcus Aurelius
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Tue 18 Feb, 2014 11:48 pm Post subject: |
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I would have sworn that I had commented on this one before and I checked the previous posts and I see that I didn't make a comment before.  ( Maybe I did comment and it disappeared in the HDD crash ? )
Nice to see the progress in this one and the extreme level of skill it must take to control the shape of all those closely spaced ridges.
This is also a real piece of fine arts ...... WOW  
And I also agree that they could have made full plate armour if they wanted to. ( And they got fairly close to full plate with arm and forearm armour, as well as plate protecting the upper leg, lower leg and the top of the foot )
"Princes" and " Heroic " warriors using chariots for mobility and often fighting individual duels would probably appreciate all the extra armour, while the later Greek Warriors gave priority to mobility and only protecting the more vulnerable parts of the body when fighting as heavy infantry in a phalanx. ( Or at least this is what I believe to be true, but I'm ready to be corrected if I'm wrong or oversimplifying  )
One could also add the cost factor of armouring an entire army in full plate armour and having them wear it in a very hot climate when on foot and running a lot .....
The mitra plate might be annoying flapping around the " essentials " when running without a cup ? 
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Dan Howard
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| Posted: Wed 19 Feb, 2014 2:51 am Post subject: |
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There are a few differences that would make Bronze Age plate a lot less comfortable than late medieval plate. The main three would be:
1. The armour was lined with a few layers of cloth and then strapped to the body rather than being pointed to a properly tailored arming doublet..
2. The plates are attached to each other with leather lacing instead of being articulated with sliding rivets.
3. They didn't have mail.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen and Sword Books
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Wed 19 Feb, 2014 9:55 am Post subject: |
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| Dan Howard wrote: | There are a few differences that would make Bronze Age plate a lot less comfortable than late medieval plate. The main three would be:
1. The armour was lined with a few layers of cloth and then strapped to the body rather than being pointed to a properly tailored arming doublet..
2. The plates are attached to each other with leather lacing instead of being articulated with sliding rivets.
3. They didn't have mail. |
Thanks for the reply Howard, and as you add " nuance " to the superficial comparison to Medieval plate armour: It wasn't quite as comfortable or evolved.
The plates on arms or legs used, at least in part, the springiness of the metal to mostly hold them in place on the limbs the same way as the greaves I believe.
And with no maile there would still be vulnerable gaps at the joints and where the edges of the springy armour would " almost " meet.
( Obviously not telling things you don't already know, assuming that I am correct, but just for the sake of others reading the Topic who might not, and again you can correct any errors I might make here since this is really your area of expertise ).
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Philip Dyer
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| Posted: Wed 19 Feb, 2014 10:11 am Post subject: |
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[quote="Jean Thibodeau"] | Dan Howard wrote: | There are a few differences that would make Bronze Age plate a lot less comfortable than late medieval plate. The main three would be:
1. The armour was lined with a few layers of cloth and then strapped to the body rather than being pointed to a properly tailored arming doublet..
2. The plates are attached to each other with leather lacing instead of being articulated with sliding rivets.
3. They didn't have mail. |
Thanks for the reply Howard, and as you add " nuance " to the superficial comparison to Medieval plate armour: It wasn't quite as comfortable or evolved.
The plates on arms or legs used, at least in part, the springiness of the metal to mostly hold them in place on the limbs the same way as the greaves I believe.
And with no maile there would still be vulnerable gaps at the joints and where the edges of the springy armour would " almost " meet.
( Obviously not telling things you don't already know, assuming that I am correct, but just for the sake of others reading the Topic who might not, and again you can correct any errors I might make here since this is really your area of expertise ).[/quote Also, if we are just going by the Dendra panopy, they hadn't figured out to make individual knee articulations so in order to cover both those areas, they had to use very large bronze articulated skirt. I had a argument with lindybiege over description of Achilles armor by Homer, in which I stated that the description that n the illiad of being so well armoured that you couldn't recognize him when he wore his armor was a device to indicate he was armoured that much more people than his day, not that he was covered in Bronze full plate armor, because, as the Dendra panpoly shows and other posts here show, you couldn't fight very effectively on foot in bronze cap and pie. So, unless Achilles was a chairiot driver, I don't think he ran around wearing bronze age full plate armour.
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Dan Howard
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| Posted: Wed 19 Feb, 2014 12:34 pm Post subject: |
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I've gone through the Iliad many times and can't find a description of Achilles' armour anywhere. The only reason that Patroklos was confused with Achilles was because the helmet concealed his face. It had nothing to do with how well the armour covered his body. There is nowhere near enough info to have any idea how to reconstruct Achilles' armour. His helmet and shield, yes, but not his armour. We are told nothing except that his cuirass was made of bronze and his greaves were made of tin. That's it! Considering his epithet of "swift-footed", one could argue that he is more lightly armoured than his peers - perhaps an Argos cuirass, a helmet, and a pair of greaves and nothing else.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen and Sword Books
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Dan Howard
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| Posted: Wed 19 Feb, 2014 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Jean Thibodeau wrote: | | The plates on arms or legs used, at least in part, the springiness of the metal to mostly hold them in place on the limbs the same way as the greaves I believe. |
Springy, form-fitting greaves are about five hundred years later. As far as we can tell, limb armour was simply held in place by wrapping leather thong around it or by attaching it to a textile under-armour and then lacing the under-armour to the limb.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen and Sword Books
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Dan Howard
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| Posted: Thu 06 Mar, 2014 11:27 pm Post subject: |
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Pauldrons are pretty much finished. Jeff is doing some impressive work.
Attachment: 209.65 KB
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen and Sword Books
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Mikko Kuusirati
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| Posted: Fri 07 Mar, 2014 4:36 am Post subject: |
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It's turning out quite fantastic!
"And sin, young man, is when you treat people like things. Including yourself. That's what sin is."
— Terry Pratchett, Carpe Jugulum
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Devon Fraser Pollock
Location: Rocky Mountain House, Alberta, Canada Joined: 10 Dec 2008
Posts: 5
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| Posted: Fri 07 Mar, 2014 11:55 am Post subject: |
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That may be the single most attractive piece of armour I have ever laid eyes upon. Jeff is an incredibly talented man. I am really envious. Not just of the armour, but because you have the bank account to afford it :-P
"May those that love you, love you. And those that don't love you, may god turn their hearts. And those whose hearts cannot be turned, may he turn their ankle so you will know them by their limp" - Scottish blessing
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Jared Smith
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| Posted: Fri 07 Mar, 2014 3:00 pm Post subject: |
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I would be very pleased to see that exactly as pictured and described in this post displayed at a museum. Its fantastic. Thanks for sharing Dan.
Jared
Absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence!
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Nat Lamb
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| Posted: Fri 07 Mar, 2014 10:54 pm Post subject: |
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looks o.k., I guess
I mean, if you *like* that sor tof thing...
By which, of course, I mean it is absolutely stunning.
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